Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

It's dark as the inside of a cow.

Ann. You have been in Australia too long.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by zeehag

sa a sola female, i think that i would make sure they arent direly in need of saving, then get enough space between to be feeling safe yet able to see, and call for help on vhf... pan pan..at such coordinates, and stand by until i saw something was gonna improve.

Well, this makes me a sola female too, I think. Which means you are not sola.

Love&flowers,
barnakiel

[estarzinger]

For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Dear Rustic Charm!

Please, make me a favour. Take Your boat, drop Your passport and all documents overboard, do not apply for any visa, sail to the United States, Canada, Japan, or any European country and claim, that You are coming legally because You are coming by boat. Next please, post report here.

With my very best regards,

waiting, but not holding my breath,

Tomasz

The point is, you are both correct. And many other posters are bang on too.

Can two people be right at the same time? Or is this beyond our "I, me, mine" as represented by vast swathes of apparently christian values praising societies?

Whoever says they should be drowned has an argument and whoever says they should be saved has and argument. And many a sailor knows what SOS stands for. Now let the illegal bodies disappear in the dark and silent abyss.

But it does not have to be this way. They do not have to die.

The EU central govt is NOT doing enough to help states like Greece, Italy and Spain manage the issue. Meanwhile, thousands of people drown every year in waters of Mediterraneo and in the Atlantic. These people die because politicians in Brussels are selfish, self-centered, money driven individuals interested solely in extending their publicly funded useless existences. We pay our politicians money that could be better used on the EU borders. To avoid people smuggling and to protect more humans/refugees/immigrants from sure death.

And we are like those politicians too, when we keep on arguing. More willing to save our self image than to face the stark reality.

Cheers,
Your by far favourite atheist,
b.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

The point is, you are both correct. And many other posters are bang on too.

Can two people be right at the same time? Or is this beyond our "I, me, mine" as represented by vast swathes of apparently christian values praising societies?

Whoever says they should be drowned has an argument and whoever says they should be saved has and argument. And many a sailor knows what SOS stands for. Now let the illegal bodies disappear in the dark and silent abyss.

But it does not have to be this way. They do not have to die.

The EU central govt is NOT doing enough to help states like Greece, Italy and Spain manage the issue. Meanwhile, thousands of people drown every year in waters of Mediterraneo and in the Atlantic. These people die because politicians in Brussels are selfish, self-centered, money driven individuals interested solely in extending their publicly funded useless existences. We pay our politicians money that could be better used on the EU borders. To avoid people smuggling and to protect more humans/refugees/immigrants from sure death.

And we are like those politicians too, when we keep on arguing. More willing to save our self image than to face the stark reality.

Cheers,
Your by far favourite atheist,
b.

+2 we need to be stopping them on the beaches of north africa

[weavis]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.

Dang! Im getting me a Van de Stadt!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Dear Rustic Charm!

Please, make me a favour. Take Your boat, drop Your passport and all documents overboard, do not apply for any visa, sail to the United States, Canada, Japan, or any European country and claim, that You are coming legally because You are coming by boat. Next please, post report here.

With my very best regards,

waiting, but not holding my breath,

Tomasz

Hmm... while I'm sure RC can answer for himself, let me make a couple of comments.

RC claimed that it is not illegal for refugees to arrive in such a fashion. I tend to agree with him but I'm no legal eagle.

Tossing your paperwork over the side does not make anyone a refugee and to do so on a whim (or as favour to a CF member ) is possibly illegal - certainly foolhardy.

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

The refugee word is a loaded one but it does have a formal meaning within the UNHCR framework and it helps (IMO) to stick with formal definitions when discussing an emotive and complex issue.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Wotname

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

Hahaha

Im laughing because I recently had my passport chewed by a dog whilst in Spain. I went to the British Embassy.
They would issue me with an Emergency Passport, but not without paying 124 EUR for it.....

Good luck with getting home

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by weavis

Dang! Im getting me a Van de Stadt!

You just don't want them all rushing to the same side at the same time to watch the fireworks

[northoceanbeach]

How come if an ill prepared skipper goes to sea and has to be rescued everyone trashes him for costing the taxpayer money for the rescue but if you have "refugees" with fifty people on a boat swampin Europe everyone feels sorry for them?

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... while I'm sure RC can answer for himself, let me make a couple of comments.

RC claimed that it is not illegal for refugees to arrive in such a fashion. I tend to agree with him but I'm no legal eagle.

Tossing your paperwork over the side does not make anyone a refugee and to do so on a whim (or as favour to a CF member ) is possibly illegal - certainly foolhardy.

However if I was shipwrecked and made it ashore in any first world country (and most others) without any paperwork, I would expect that country to test my claim of shipwreck (or whatever) and then not hinder me in getting back home.

The refugee word is a loaded one but it does have a formal meaning within the UNHCR framework and it helps (IMO) to stick with formal definitions when discussing an emotive and complex issue.

May be, just may be, I got the Rustic Charm's post wrong. If so, sorry. But I'm not so sure.
It is not true, that people coming by boats are refugees and illegal immigrants are just those who overstays their visas. May be it is the statistically important case for Australia? I do not know, of course.
But illegal immigrants constitute most of the visaless flow of people coming to the Europe and USA. It is good to understand this, as refugees and illegal immigrants should be treated differently.
No European governement denies the rights of refugees. And for (real) refugees means of transportations are not relevant. They can come in a spaceship even
So - there is no anything specific in coming by boat.
A refugee is a refugee coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Illegal immigrant is illegal immigrant coming by boat, plane, train, walking on own legs, riding the horse.
Coming by boat does not make anybody legal, and this was, what I wanted to point out.

Cheers,

Tomasz

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by atoll

+2
We need to be stopping them on the beaches of north africa

+... how many??? ...never mind... You are just right!!!

[atoll]

Originally Posted by northoceanbeach

How come if an ill prepared skipper goes to sea and has to be rescued everyone trashes him for costing the taxpayer money for the rescue but if you have "refugees" with fifty people on a boat swampin Europe everyone feels sorry for them?

why do Europeans feel sorry for refugees?:because it pisses off our facist middle class elitist, ruling elite!

,not so long ago half of the European population were refugees,either from the communists or the Nazis.........or both in the case of israel!

[Coxswain]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

For me there is a bright line . . . . If they indicate distress in any of the recognized ways, or ask for help, or someone is overboard, I will go to help . . . . Otherwise I will consider it none of my business, and not attempt to guess their intent or legal status, nor "report" my guesses.

As an aside, during a birthday party we had 50 middle aged Scot's on board Hawk. They do fit, but they also do noticably effect the boat's stability.

Very good answer!

[northoceanbeach]

Originally Posted by atoll

why do Europeans feel sorry for refugees?:because it pisses off our facist middle class elitist, ruling elite!

,not so long ago half of the European population were refugees,either from the communists or the Nazis.........or both in the case of israel!

I'm not sure I follow you....