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chriscd · 09-10-2016, 08:20

i am looking at a nauticat 44 with a schooner rig (two masts, smaller foremast). the question is how good is this configuration for sailing into the wind? also anything else about this configuration. i am am a sloop sailor and have not sailed a schooner before.

**Jim Cate** · 09-10-2016, 15:26

In general, schooner rigs are not known for good windward performance. Their strong suit is reaching, a point of sail common to coastal passages, and that is where the schooner designs tended to proliferate.

For windward work, their big mainsail is operating in a very disturbed flow field (from all the masts, sails and rigging in front of them), and thus their primary driver is compromised. Sailing downwind, the big main blankets the foresails, and can tend to make difficult steering with the drive centered so far aft.

They have their enthusiasts, and certainly can be attractive, but the inherent flaws are IMO significant. YMMV.

Jim

**Don C L** · 09-10-2016, 16:21

A flawed design by modern standards perhaps, but I once got a ride on the Star Pilot, a Gloucester schooner, when it was in Santa Barbara back in 1980 or so. I was gobsmacked and enchanted. Sure we didn't go competitively well to weather I guess, I wasn't really paying attention to that. The breathtaking thrill of seeing and feeling that enormous rig scudding the 120 footer along on a reach, heeled at about 20 degrees... well, I began to think, maybe I could just sail on a reach everywhere? Can't find her now, guess they changed her name. Here is "Bluenose" though...
to sail a boat like this, I'd sacrifice a lot of pointing ability!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEMnylOUDYE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKS-bGcoZW4

Pelagic · 09-10-2016, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

In general, schooner rigs are not known for good windward performance. Their strong suit is reaching, a point of sail common to coastal passages, and that is where the schooner designs tended to proliferate.

For windward work, their big mainsail is operating in a very disturbed flow field (from all the masts, sails and rigging in front of them), and thus their primary driver is compromised. Sailing downwind, the big main blankets the foresails, and can tend to make difficult steering with the drive centered so far aft.

Jim

Exactly right Jim.....as I find in my schooner.

But then again, 'Gentleman don't go to Windward'

Seriously, coastal is mostly what I want to do now but if I do need go to windward, a reefed headsail or small staysail is sheeted in as are the 2 loose footed mainsails..... and I motor sail at about 900rpm...doing about 7 knots.
Balances well on hand steering with that little help from my Perkins.

Obviously I am not a purist.

**Jim Cate** · 09-10-2016, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Exactly right Jim.....as I find in my schooner.

But then again, 'Gentleman don't go to Windward'

Seriously, coastal is mostly what I want to do now but if I do need go to windward, a reefed headsail or small staysail is sheeted in as are the 2 loose footed mainsails..... and I motor sail at about 900rpm...doing about 7 knots.
Balances well on hand steering with that little help from my Perkins.

Obviously I am not a purist.

Yep, that's a handsome vessel, but not a classic schooner (like Bluenose shown above). And your approach to getting to windward is what a lot of folks with rigs of all descriptions do, and there is nothing wrong with that IMO.

And I dunno about the gentlemen biz... I keep finding myself to leeward of someplace I wanna be. I guess I'm no gentleman!

Jim

**JPA Cate** · 09-10-2016, 17:45

Don CL,

I was aboard the Wander Bird in about 1955, she was berthed in Sausalito at the time. The picture brought back memories. The saloon table was gimballed. I was 15 at the time, and I was simply amazed.

Ann

**Jim Cate** · 09-10-2016, 17:52

Quote:

to sail a boat like this, I'd sacrifice a lot of pointing ability!

A romantic and understandable view, Don, but the OP was asking about the windward ability of schooner rigs in general, and by inference, the Nauticat 44, which isn't a 120 foot classic schooner.

Jim

**Don C L** · 09-10-2016, 20:29

Ah yes, there is no practical reason to put a classic schooner rig on a Nauticat... but at the sound of "schooner" I'll always pivot to the romantic!

**Don C L** · 09-10-2016, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Don CL,

I was aboard the Wander Bird in about 1955, she was berthed in Sausalito at the time. The picture brought back memories. The saloon table was gimballed. I was 15 at the time, and I was simply amazed.

Ann

That's wonderful! I had only heard of Wander Bird. In Star Pilot I was inspired by the long dining table, the rows of bunks on either side, the large wood burning stove in the galley, the aft cabin with more bunks... it just looked like it could have been the perfect training ship for some lucky bunch of kids...

Snowpetrel · 10-10-2016, 02:10

I don't think sailing to windward was ever a big part of the design brief. Flat water, with steady moderate winds it will likely do OK as long as no more performance orientated boats are about to show it up. In any sea, or with real distance to cover the engine will likely need to be used to make any real progress. I am not sure a cutter rig would improve the design enough to make open water or light airs windward work effective option. She is primarily a good motorsailer.

The rig has other plusses though, the main is easy to handle, and the two staysails make a great easy to handle steading sail setup, or heavy weather rig. It looks great and will keep you and any crew nicely entertained tweaking lines, on those nice days when you set all sail.

For this hull I think the biggest drawbacks of the rig are the windage at anchor or motoring to windward, and the cost of rerigging.

I really think the biggest limitation is the hull design rather than the rig. I also think she would make a first class motorsailer, and to focus on pure sailing ability is missing the point of the design.

Snowpetrel · 10-10-2016, 02:23

^^edit that mainmast on top of the deckhouse looks a bit awkward in a seaway. It has some plusses, like being able to reach the top of the sail easily, but it is a high bit of structure to climb and hang onto.

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chriscd · 10-10-2016, 07:06

thanks to all. i want go blue water, so a motor sailor is probably not a good idea anyway. would run out of fuel.
i am a gentleman but often need to go into the wind anyway.
i am looking for a blue water cruiser between 35-45 feet. no full keel. no fin and spade. i want a skeg before the rudder. performance is important. also want to be able to see through windows in the salon or pilot house. need to sail well in a sea way. marquesas.
any suggestions?. they dont make them this way anymore and a new boat would be too expensive anyway. i need to buy the boat, sail it for 10 years and then sell it and get most of the money back. hah hah.

**JPA Cate** · 10-10-2016, 14:13

I don't know if it is still available, but there is a 35 or6 foot aluminum Lavranos for sale here on CF. Those Lavranos boats are nice sailing boats, and from the pics, this one looked very nice to me. It is definitely a boat that could take you to the Marquesas. She is on the East coast.

There's another aluminum boat here on CF, "Mucho Gusto", which is a little long in the tooth, now, a Gary Mull design, for sale in CA.

Generally speaking, it is best, if possible, to buy locally or at least within a distance that you can deliver the boat home yourself. [other options cost more]

Ann

Ann

Nauticatarcher · 10-10-2016, 15:02

Look for a Nauticat 40 or 43, good pilothouse and better sailing ability, not sure about the 40 but the 43 is an SS design, as much as I liked our NC44(cutterrigged Sloop version) I would have gladly traded it in on a NC43