Sail handling without winches

[Hene]

In "The Marlinspike Sailor", Hervey Garrett Smith devotes two pages to tackles, page 100 being devoted to his lovely illustrations and page 101 to exposition. He also refers to Kniight's "Modern Seamanship" as including a more thorough discussion.

When I was a young teenager, we had a heavy 34' Danish ketch with no sheet winches. The tackles for the headsails lay on the side decks and we had to lean over the high cockpit coamings to trim the jib sheets. I'm sure the tackles made it a littleeasier, but a winch would have been better for our ribs.

Later, on a tender 30' sloop, we had no reefing winch. My husband used a trucker's hitch to get extra purchase on the reefing lines. This is much cheaper than either a winch or block and tackle, and might be a temporary solution on your hypothetical 24' next boat.

Now my 30' junk-rigged boat has a single sail, 549 square feet, with a yard and half a dozen aluminum battens. The halyard, with a four part tackle, leads back to a Lewmar self-tailer at the forward end of the cockpit. I can get it about half way up without using a winch handle, but after that it's very slow, even with tackle AND winch, so I'm using a borrowed electric Winchrite, and will soon get my own. Tackles are great, but involve lots of extra friction, and are a huge multiplier of extra line in the way.

[skipmac]

If you're asking because of reliability, maintenance and similar concerns, in 40 years of sailing on multiple boats have not had a winch break. Several that needed cleaning and lubing, some that were worn but never had one just fail. Yes it can happen, most likely due to a broken pawl but easy to carry spares and easy to swap out.

If asking because of cost, a good block and tackle might be slightly cheaper than a winch but not by much.

If KISS then the winch every time. Cleaner installation all around.

[SalingSue]

This sounds like it’s going to take up more space, be slower, more prone to issues.
Plus now you have shackles and blocks that will wear, plus the line which is a much higher wear rate item.

I mean how often are you servicing a winch? Think I end up around 1 time a year and that’s just being proactive.


Solution in search of a problem

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by ms.lau

Thank you for your replies so far. I'm currently "between boats", last one was 34' but I'm thinking of more like 24' next time. I'm just looking at the cost of outfitting and the price of gear. The price of a small secondhand winch seems to be quite massive. Why use stainless rigging instead of galvanised? Moitesseir was keen on using clamps instead of splicing steel rigging. He also talked about greasing halyards (and sheets?) to make them last longer. A boat without an engine... All these things are interesting to consider...

If you haven’t already, I would recommend reading Linn and Larry Pardey’s self sufficient sailor. There is no end to the money one can save by going minimal. Yet, as someone who personally follows their examples I would still say winches are the most practical solutions. I personally have traditional (at this point antique) merrimen winches. No self tailing, no real gear work. Last forever with grease and maybe the occasional pawl or spring replacement. Those can be had used for 20$ or new for around $80 far cheaper than the blocks necessary to replace winches.

[johnn33]

Merriman https://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Win...an_Winches.php


John

[Hesti]

"Hand, Reef and Steer" from Tom Cunliffe might answer some questions.

[roverhi]

Used non self tailing winches are going for scrap value otherwise dirt cheap. Old Barients are mechanical works of art that will probably outlast the human race and most other ones with bronze drums are equally as robust. Buy a spare set of dogs and springs and you should be good for your lifetime.

One reason not to go with blocks is they are dangerous on a flogging sail. Those blocks whipping around will draw blood and could even knock you out and kill you if you went overboard. No reason in this day and age not to go with winches as they will be cheaper especially if you eschew the later self tailing variety and way safer.

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by ms.lau

Thank you for your replies so far. I'm currently "between boats", last one was 34' but I'm thinking of more like 24' next time. I'm just looking at the cost of outfitting and the price of gear. The price of a small secondhand winch seems to be quite massive. Why use stainless rigging instead of galvanised? Moitesseir was keen on using clamps instead of splicing steel rigging. He also talked about greasing halyards (and sheets?) to make them last longer. A boat without an engine... All these things are interesting to consider...

For a 24’ boat you can probably get away without any winches. Some would be nice but in this size some small block and tackle would be fine.

Are you planning to live aboard a 24’ boat?

[Cliffhanger]

You asked about the physics, so lets look at that, and I'll use a worked example. First, work out the potential loads on the sheet.

https://www.harken.com.au/content.aspx?id=9096

My 36ft cat in 20kts has a sheet load of 330kg. The average person can comfortably pull between 100 - 200N or 10 to 20 Kg. (20Kg is like lifting a jerry can full of water). So, for me to get to a midrange 15Kg, I would need a 20:1 block arrangement.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/p...n%29%20%286%29

[budm303]

"Sail Power", Ross ISBN 0-394-72715-0 (pbk) More than you need to know about the incredible forces involved.

[BermWorm]

"Knowing The Ropes" by Roger C. Taylor 2nd Edition He shows some pro's and con's involving blocks and tackle versus winches

[dfelsent]

I learned to sail, on among other things, a small heavy wood gaff schooner. No winches.
Two cleats. The rest belaying pins.
We had one block and tackle for Genoa trimming. Moved it from side to side.
Galvanized standing rigging with deadeyes, not turnbuckles.
Engine was marginal at best. Could not be relied on.
In light wind and tight harbors using the anchor to bring the bow around while tacking was the thing. By hand of course.
Sailing to and from anchor.
I picked up a huge amount of practical knowledge. Glad to have it.
Also glad to have my current boats winches and reliable engine and windlass.

[billgewater]

Winches make sailing easier. If you don't have winches then you won't have wenches.

[Manateeman]

Like Defelsent, I started sailing without winches...lot of the same experiences.
We survived ocean races without a radio. No gps, no liferaft, no electronics, no electrical system, no depth finder, no radio direction finder, no radar, no ais, no... No and more no.
We had a better clock and compass. Weather forecast was a recording barometer and a thermometer. A lead line. Oil lamps.
If you made a navigational error, no body knew because you just disappeared.
Winches...are you kidding? Only New York Yacht Club boats had them.
And yet, we enjoyed sailing.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his “stripped down always naked” manatees.

[Benz]

I captained an 80' gaff-rigged steel schooner with no winches. One captain, two crew, five sails a day. Lots of rope, but a tackle is lots quicker than a winch. Like a previous poster, you'd get the jib sheet in tight while on the tack and ease it once on course.
On my 31' gaff cutter, I have four multiple-part halyards which don't go to winches. It is absolutely not hard to get the sails hoisted. I have sheet winches, but almost never use the handle--I just snub with them. The only really important winches are for the running backstays.
I suspect for a 24-footer you can easily get away without winches, or at most very small ones. Snubbing winches (ones without a handle) are becoming popular again.