Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I tested a lot of drogues, including the Seabrake for articles. At least the fabric version is no different in drag vs. speed than any other drogue. They ALL vary as [COLOR=Red]force ~ V^2 x area

Good info Thinwater. I always suspected that was more or less the case. The original HSD has four flaps that pull into the drogue and are supposed to create extra drag at higher speeds. The spring tension can be varied to increase or decrease the flap activation speed from about 4 to 8 knots from memory. It would be facinating to test one and see if it made any real difference in practice under controlled conditions.

My parents were very impresed with how it held the 20 tonne boat at near six knots and prevented surfing in very big seas, but it also allowed the boat to keep good speed up in the troughs. My mother described it as feeling like the boat was about to start surfing and having someone gently tap the brakes and bring things back under control.

The multi element drogue sounds very promising. I have a slightly too small series drogue. It may go well as the last element to deploy.

[hpeer]

Thinwater,
What was your impression of the Galerider?

[dkenny64]

just a question..
can you sail down wind in a heave to?
I thought you have sail into the wind..beam reach or higher..


I thought the idea of a drouge was to add effective mass to the boat.. to help keep from broaching in the waves..


-dkenny64

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Internet expert and trying to keep it that way.

My understanding is that you first try active management of the boat and then turn to passive techniques.

Sort of in increasing order
Run off
Heaven to
Traditional drogue - gale rider
Jordan drogue

Run off as you have sea way
Heave to to slow down and get rest
Traditional drouge only when the above don’t work and you are going too fast
Jordan when a traditional won’t work

So I spoke to a gentleman who lost his boat. Details aside his take away was he deployed his drogue too early, it slowed him too much, allowed a wave to smack him hard, he took a knock down that killed his engine.

From my megar experience I find that AFTER the storm, with little or no wind but still with big waves is menacing. Especially in an under powered boat. I’ve never had it bad, but Ive experienced not to bad and it was miserable. I can see how it could be dangerous. Blah!

That’s a lot of crap to lug around. So I have a Gale rider but not a JSD. I do have 900’ of 7/8” line, that should help.

Many have said that the tactic you start the storm with is the tactic you will maintain throughout the storm as the conditions will be too big to try switching if/when you decide your first tactic is not working well enough. Don’t even consider planning that you will be crawling around deck in 50+ knots and commensurate seas.

Just imagine the size of the seas when you decide that running is too dangerous - and your next step is to turn broadside to the seas as you turn to heave to. Then when that begins to be dangerous due to breaking seas, now you want to turn sideways again? And say you set a Galerider or similar - the only way you’ll be able to switch to a JSD when the conditions get bigger is to cut the Galerider free. Are you sure you want to be messing around on deck at that point?

Pick your ultimate storm survival method and accept that sometimes you will go to it earlier than it really is needed. Some will advise to have both upwind (parachute anchor) and downwind (speed-limiting drogue) options.

Some boats are better suited to one method or the other. Regardless of what you pick, prepare it for auto-deployment from your cockpit at the start of every passage.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Thinwater,
What was your impression of the Galerider?

The reviews (several) are in Practical Sailor.

The Galerider is lower in drag for a given size, but provides the most constant tension. It is also more stable at higher speeds since it is less prone to sudden surfacing. Thus, it is better for speed control for faster boats (catamaran delivery guys like them) and emergency steering, and less so for extreme storm management. I might carry a Galerider and something else, hoping to only use the Galerider.


I tested several, including the Galerider, Seabrake, and Delta Drogue in near gale conditions both for emergency steering and speed control. With some jib and an adjustable bridle, broad reaching was smooth as silk, like someone turned the wind down by 10 knots. Sure, you can probably hand steer through most storms, but a drogue can simply make it easier. That's nice when you're tired.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Good info Thinwater. I always suspected that was more or less the case. The original HSD has four flaps that pull into the drogue and are supposed to create extra drag at higher speeds. The spring tension can be varied to increase or decrease the flap activation speed from about 4 to 8 knots from memory. It would be facinating to test one and see if it made any real difference in practice under controlled conditions.

My parents were very impresed with how it held the 20 tonne boat at near six knots and prevented surfing in very big seas, but it also allowed the boat to keep good speed up in the troughs. My mother described it as feeling like the boat was about to start surfing and having someone gently tap the brakes and bring things back under control.

The multi element drogue sounds very promising. I have a slightly too small series drogue. It may go well as the last element to deploy.

This is good to hear. I have the sea brake and have never had to use it. This is the first time Ive heard a report of its effectiveness.

[Snowpetrel]

Saying that it was one of the old solid plastic seabrakes, not the new Burke canvas versions. They ended up buying a canvas version and giving me the old plastic one, because of the space it took up. They haven't used the canvas one in anger yet.

I'll experiment with the plastic one. I can see it being useful to help out the windvane downwind in fresh conditions with the spring tension wound up to 7.5 knots or so. I am not real fond of surfing when using the windvane, and it may just stop my lightweight boat taking off down a steep wave and broaching.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Saying that it was one of the old solid plastic seabrakes, not the new Burke canvas versions. They ended up buying a canvas version and giving me the old plastic one, because of the space it took up. They haven't used the canvas one in anger yet.

I'll experiment with the plastic one. I can see it being useful to help out the windvane downwind in fresh conditions with the spring tension wound up to 7.5 knots or so. I am not real fond of surfing when using the windvane, and it may just stop my lightweight boat taking off down a steep wave and broaching.

Surfing is the only time I don't fully rely on my Hydrovane. More precisely when I start surfing in bigger swells to much. I'll engage the autopilot and leave the Hydrovane operating as well. Only done this a couple of times.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ I normally try to keep under surfing speeds, by reducing sail or if I am already down to pocket handkerchief jib I get the drogue out. I just don't like the extra load on the rudder, the sudden accelerations and deceleration and the higher probablity of a high speed broach.

I think it is best to either have enough sail up to keep the boat surfing early and under control on every wave, or slow down enough to prevent it. The worst case is to start surfing late on the steepest part of a big wave and then rapidly accelerate down the steep face.

The transition from displacement to surfing and then back can be an issue for many heavy cruising boats. It is no where near so much of an problem for a lightweight racing sled.

The ability to run the hydrovane and the AP in tandem sounds handy. Hard to do with a Servo pendulum vane, though I suppose a tillerpilot drive solves the apparent wind issue. Saying that I have surfed with my old fleming windvane, and it coped better than I did, I guess on my heavy boats it's mostly happening in strong winds where the apparent doesn't shift to much.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Many have said that the tactic you start the storm with is the tactic you will maintain throughout the storm as the conditions will be too big to try switching if/when you decide your first tactic is not working well enough. Don’t even consider planning that you will be crawling around deck in 50+ knots and commensurate seas.

Just imagine the size of the seas when you decide that running is too dangerous - and your next step is to turn broadside to the seas as you turn to heave to. Then when that begins to be dangerous due to breaking seas, now you want to turn sideways again? And say you set a Galerider or similar - the only way you’ll be able to switch to a JSD when the conditions get bigger is to cut the Galerider free. Are you sure you want to be messing around on deck at that point?

Pick your ultimate storm survival method and accept that sometimes you will go to it earlier than it really is needed. Some will advise to have both upwind (parachute anchor) and downwind (speed-limiting drogue) options.

Some boats are better suited to one method or the other. Regardless of what you pick, prepare it for auto-deployment from your cockpit at the start of every passage.

THIS I guess was my main issue/question.... and also kind of like reefing a little at night as a cruising practice vs as needed, some people hate to lose the miles, others hate to lose the sleep If running before something that will get bad (but not survival conditions necessarily, and I'm down to scraps of sail and it becomes too much, I think I'd be leaning toward the drogue and continuing on rather than turning back and heaving to, simply because if it gets worse I'm already on my final tactic and have to do nothing but hunker down inside. If it doesn't get worse then I lose some miles, but that's fine.

Thanks everyone for all the discussion! I'm reading the coast guard report (which I somehow missed) right now....

[Sojourner]

Finished reading the coast guard report. Their conclusions:

JSD = great
Single drogue off stern = difficult to keep in position
Sea-anchor off bow = NOT recommended

I wonder if this is like the anchor debate? Everyone had their favorites for liking bruces and plows, but new gen seems to beat them in most every test. Yet my marina is filled with bruces and plows.... I'm 1 of 100 with fat Rocna hanging off the front

[El Pinguino]

Worth a read from Page 57...

https://archive.org/stream/tothegrea...48mbp_djvu.txt

This was in a weather system the same or similar to the one I draw attention to here ... http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-204152.html

Varua was 50 tons, 70 foot.....

Enough to make you take up lawn bowls....

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by thinwater

......Another option I would love to see more people try is two conventional drogues (Seabrake, Delta, Small Shark) in series with 100-200 feet of non-stretch line between them. They seem to work a lot like a JSD in this configuration, with fewer handling problems and more alternative uses (steering and speed limiting, neither of which a JSD is good at even if shortened). .......

Thanks for the tip... I always just carried the second one as a spare.... for when I lost the first one... I was on the point of selling it...

[osprey877]

One issue I haven't seen much comment on is whether or not a stern drogue could potentially interfere with/damage the self-steering vane. My boat, like many others, has a forward raking narrow transom and a bridle attached to the corners is likely to foul the self steering vane if the boat gets at much of an angle to the drogue. Is this an issue on many boats, or does the drogue tend to stream dead aft so it's not a problem?

[Snowpetrel]

We had our vane damaged by the drogue once. Not really sure how it happened but it was a pretty wild night, and I think the drogue line got caught under the servo rudder.

I wonder if pulling some stiff tubing over the bridle legs would help. Saying that it doesn't seem to have been an issue with the more steady series drogue.