Jordan Series Drogue experience

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by Talbot

Some interesting points made in this thread. Like others, I am sure that the boat speed had a major part to play in the fraying. I was very surprised to see that you only have 150 drogues on your system. I told my supplier what boat I had and they specified a 150 drogue kit for me - and my boat may be a lot heavier built, but it is also a lot smaller.

A lot of the force on a cat comes from the wind, so a lightly-built boat would need more drogues than a smaller heavy-built boat of the same weight.

I purchased mine from series drogue, and I also got a deployment bag as well

Yes. Looking at the specs from your link it looks like they would have recommended 150 cones for my boat as well, based on a displacement of 9 tons.

I agree with your statement; "A lot of the force on a cat comes from the wind, so a lightly-built boat would need more drogues than a smaller heavy-built boat of the same weight." It may be that the specs for multihulls need to be revised a bit to add a greater allowance for windage. Perhaps a formula that uses the ratio of windage or, more simply, boat length to displacement. Such a formula would dictate a larger number of cones for larger multihulls of similar displacement.

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Are you discouraged because they consider this to be a single use product or because the didn't make it clearer on their website that it was a single use product?

I would expect any company focused on the quality of their products to be alarmed by the report that the cones are showing sign of damage after a short, light use. The correct response it to recognize this is a problem and work to resolve it. The nonchalant attitude towards a major quality issue with one of their products makes me wary of buying any of their products.

[colemj]

The OP was in 40-50kt winds and small seas for 2hrs and suffered damage of the drogue.

To call that a "one-time use" is alarming, seeing how many people buy drogues with the understanding that they may need to deploy them in much worse conditions for much longer times.

I too find Sailrite's position odd, and the quality and worth of their drogue product questionable. We have friends who deployed a JSD (from Ace) in worse conditions for a longer time and they had no damage to their cones at all.

Mark

[StuM]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Yes. Looking at the specs from your link it looks like they would have recommended 150 cones for my boat as well, based on a displacement of 9 tons.

I agree with your statement; "A lot of the force on a cat comes from the wind, so a lightly-built boat would need more drogues than a smaller heavy-built boat of the same weight." It may be that the specs for multihulls need to be revised a bit to add a greater allowance for windage. Perhaps a formula that uses the ratio of windage or, more simply, boat length to displacement. Such a formula would dictate a larger number of cones for larger multihulls of similar displacement.

Jordan Series Drogue - Design Loads and Attachments
Jordan Series Drogue - Monohull Prcing
Jordan Series Drogue - Multihulls Pricing

Different Design loads and specs for monos and cats. A LOT more cones and line per 1000lb of displacement with cats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by SVI

Thanks for sharing, but the weight of 4 x 5 liter water containers (in the water) is zero. I would attach a spare anchor.

It was the only thing to hand. !!! I think going to the bow in that weather to get an anchor would not have been a good life decision.

I didn't say it was effective. It was merely what was at hand ( thinking back it may have been diesel or oil , it did seem to serve to keep the end from being thrown forward.

Dave

[pacifica]

For information: my Sailrite JSD was deployed on 3 separate occasions. After the second deployment I heatsealed the edges because of slight fraying. The third deployment was for 3 full days and there was no new damage. I'll keep it and use it again if needed. It is in good condition, as far as I can tell.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Getting "pooped" only has to happen once. There is a USCG video out there that shows a large commercial fishing boat running with seas and he loses power, it took exactly 2 waves to roll him over, I don't know where the link is or I would post it. It is not the same as running before the sea with a drogue, unless the drogue line were to part. I would be much more comfortable putting the drogue off of my bow and keep my head into it. I like a drogue for heavy weather, I just don't want it on my stern. So we will agree to disagree. All the best.

Have you ever been pooped? I have. It is unpleasant, but not fatal. It certainly should be avoided if possible, but the many people who have used a JSD in extreme conditions do not find that they get pooped too often.

Now, I was in a Westsail 32 when I got pooped so we had a nice, small cockpit. Some boats would have been more affected, I'm sure. But to suggest that it is somehow fatal just isn't right. ** us, it was simply a bit scary (I was alone on watch in the cockpit at night at the time).

Boats love to sail stern to the wind. Leave a boat alone in a blow and see which way it ends up pointing. If you leave your bow to the wind it will yaw all over the place. It will also shock load the parachute anchor and present severe chafing challenges.

Since it wants to be stern to the wind, a boat tethered off the rear will sit nicely by comparison. And it will have no danger of sliding backwards and damaging the steering. This should not be underestimated as an important point.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by pacifica

For information: my Sailrite JSD was deployed on 3 separate occasions. After the second deployment I heatsealed the edges because of slight fraying. The third deployment was for 3 full days and there was no new damage. I'll keep it and use it again if needed. It is in good condition, as far as I can tell.

That has to be some sort of record! You obviously sail in some interesting places. Thank you for chiming in with your experiences.

[pacifica]

Experience is accumulating. One friend has used his JSD 5 times, and a German/English couple I met in SanDiego 3 years ago had used their JSD on 11 occasions.
It is very interesting to chat with those crews about heavy weather tactics.
It could be a bit of a paradigm shift.
There might actually be new information.
Possibly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Have you ever been pooped? I have. It is unpleasant, but not fatal. It certainly should be avoided if possible, but the many people who have used a JSD in extreme conditions do not find that they get pooped too often.

Now, I was in a Westsail 32 when I got pooped so we had a nice, small cockpit. Some boats would have been more affected, I'm sure. But to suggest that it is somehow fatal just isn't right. ** us, it was simply a bit scary (I was alone on watch in the cockpit at night at the time).

Boats love to sail stern to the wind. Leave a boat alone in a blow and see which way it ends up pointing. If you leave your bow to the wind it will yaw all over the place. It will also shock load the parachute anchor and present severe chafing challenges.

Since it wants to be stern to the wind, a boat tethered off the rear will sit nicely by comparison. And it will have no danger of sliding backwards and damaging the steering. This should not be underestimated as an important point.

Indeed -- very important points. To sum it up:

1. You are much less likely to be pooped when taking the wave train from the stern, than you are to have tons and tons of green water on deck, taking them on the bow -- because the bow has far less buoyancy than the stern.

2. You are much less likely to yaw around and get rolled by a big breaker, taking the waves from the stern, since the boat is much more stable hydrodynamically from taking the waves from the stern -- the keel and rudder are further aft than the center of pressure.

3. You are much less likely to yaw around and get rolled by a big breaker, if you are making way forward, which puts dynamic loads on keel and rudder, stabilizing the boat. Compared to lying dead in the water to a para anchor.

4. Making away ahead in the same direction as the wave train reduces the force of impact of the waves, giving your boat more time to ride up on them.

5. Making way ahead reduces apparent wind speed, for whatever that's worth (maybe little compared to the other factors).



Granted, being pooped is no fun, especially in an aft cockpit boat*. But the very slight risk of this is no price at all to pay, in my opinion, for the massive stability you get from making way ahead trailing a drogue. Taking waves on the bow, you are in an inherently unstable position, with the saves tending to knock the bow off so that you can be rolled. Much more holding force needed to keep the bows into the waves.

In my opinion, the place for lying bows-to a para anchor is the case described by the Pardeys -- as a supplement to being stably hove-to. If you are in a stable hove-to position, then the para anchor adds more stability, and you are in a bomb-proof passive position which allows you to go below and go to sleep -- not quite like the active position of running off trailing a drogue. This might be a good thing to have in your bag of tricks, supplementary to the drogue, if you are sailing in high latitudes or with risk of really extreme weather. IF, of course, your boat heaves-to well. And of course, rigging it from the foredeck in survival conditions is an entirely different subject and another huge disadvantage to this tactic . . .


I would never lie to a para anchor without being hove-to, if I had a drogue or even warps to trail while running off. And I think for my boat, the drogue (or extra-long warps) would be all I could even imagine needing, as my boat behaves very well running off in even very tough weather without trailing anything. Running off in a F10 under basically bare poles (a little scrap of jib for stability, like the feather on an arrow) is fine on my boat -- comfortable, autopilot copes well.



* My boat, on the other hand, has a smallish center cockpit nearly 20 feet ahead of the stern of the boat, with wide side-decks on either side, so much less worry about being pooped in my particular case, plus massive Lexan one-piece counterweighted washboard. By same token, in a center cockpit boat, taking big water on board from the bow is no picnic. I have, personally, had green water in the cockpit which arrived via the bow, and on more than one occasion, but never a drop via the stern.

[Orchidius]

Additionally consider the USCG model analysis which indicated that a drogue line would come 20-25' slack most wave cycles. In practice they indicated it came slack occasionally rather than every cycle and to a lesser degree. Even so the line coming slack by 10' then allowing the boat to accelerate before being jerked short by a leader with no stretch seems like a recipe for ripping cleats out of the deck and leaving holes in the hull.

Any reaction to this? Seems like a valid point... My points of attachment are holes in the steel hull itself, so no issue there, but it might well pose extra (shock)loads on the rope/splices that the designer did not foresee as he designed it for nylon.

Would having the rodes attached to the boat and the first cone-less section in nylon eliminate the need to upsize the dyneema on the rest?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Orchidius

Any reaction to this? Seems like a valid point... My points of attachment are holes in the steel hull itself, so no issue there, but it might well pose extra (shock)loads on the rope/splices that the designer did not foresee as he designed it for nylon.

Would having the rodes attached to the boat and the first cone-less section in nylon eliminate the need to upsize the dyneema on the rest?

Could be, and it's certainly worth investigation.

Remember, however, that a drogue in the water is not like a line made fast to a concrete bollard. Even if the line is inelastic, the drogue will pull through the water when large forces are applied. I would be interested to hear practical experience of people using them made out of Dyneema. It sounds like it has a lot of advantages (no loss of strength when wet, chafe resistence, no internal heating, lighter and easier to handle, not more expensive when compared strength-to-strength).

[foolishsailor]

I am surprised at Sail Rites position that a JSD is a one shot product.

We carry one and used it three separate times in a single passage from St. Helena to Rio. We have a 45' 9ton Mono and were in 40kt + conditions on and off for a period of 6 days. I estimated wave height was 5meters, but we all know how accurate self estimation is...anyway they were large but not really breaking, just small whitewater growlers coming down faces.

We used the JSD to prevent surfing, but more to control boat movement. We had large long period swells coming from the south and perpendicular to the local waves we were experiencing and these swells were occasionally knocking the boat very aggressively off the wave faces. We put the JSD in and it was like we had flicked a switch, the boat locked into a course and the only motion was the up and down of the swells passing.

Our cockpit was filled several times, but I'm not sure I understand the idea that getting pooped is apocalyptical? That said, it wasn't green water coming in as much as white water and not particularly violent.

Our JSD was home made by a local sailor while we were in South Africa and she hemmed all the cones. The system is all triple braid as well.

The idea that it is only designed for a single use is crazy, we pulled it as soon as the wind abated as we wanted to be able to make way and didn't want to wallow in the large swells still left, the wind picked up again 18 hours after it abated and we popped it back in. This happened again 36 hours later.

I like the idea of using the bow rollers, but I don't think that would have been feasible for us in the swells we were in as we pulled it in while there was still wind.

To pull it in we also had run a line to the main cone line just past the bridle. We then ran to snatch blocks to the bow of the boar and ran two lines from the main winch forward to the blocks. We first winched the line past the bridle all the way to the bow and then untied that line tied a rolling hitch with the other line at the end of the boat and winced that into the bow and repeated. Took about 45 minutes the first time, and walking to the bow was interesting but it was effective and we were able to keep our headsail up to keep way on while we were doing it. The first half of hauling in was hard work but as the cones pulled in it got quite easy at the end.

[MattGrant]

Originally Posted by RDW

As far as the stress apllied to the boat, I have thought that I would attach the bridle to my two stern cleats and then lead it to a near by winch and tighten the tail as tight as possible. I would enjoy hearing comments on whether this would relieve any stress to the cleats.
I sent a note to Sailrite to see if they would comment on the fraying and would they offer any remedy.
Again, an excellent post and discussion.
RDW

Wow, lots of great information in this forum thread. To keep this short I will answer in numbered paragraphs addressing what I believe.

1. I think double braid line is a necessity to attaching the cones properly. I do not have any real knowledge as to what a change in rope elasticity would accomplish. I certainly agree that reducing weight is always desired. I would love to hear from anyone who has successfully used a single braid or three strand rope effectively.

2. After use of a drouge (in appropriate conditions), the cones will be softened and often be damaged. This is the case with almost all safety devices that endure tremendous loads. Repairs and or replacement will be necessary. But to answer RWD's question above, there are ways to minimize wear. One approach is to put a tape trim over the raw edge of both cone ends (the mouth being the most important). These should be sewn. I recommend #104220 from Sailrite or some other similar soft 1" nylon tape. Fold the tape in half and cap the raw cone material edging. Then sew it in place with zigzag stitching. The only reason not to do this is the amount of extra time it adds to an already labor intensive process.

3. Idea: Use of a heavier PVC vinyl product like Shelter-Rite for some or all of the cones. This might be a good idea for the first couple dozen cones, but the extra weight makes it impractical for use in all cones.

Thanks, Matt Grant with Sailrite

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by StuM

Jordan Series Drogue - Design Loads and Attachments
Jordan Series Drogue - Monohull Prcing
Jordan Series Drogue - Multihulls Pricing

Different Design loads and specs for monos and cats. A LOT more cones and line per 1000lb of displacement with cats.

A lot more cones, yes, but I suspect not enough. Pacifica has used his JSD, also from a Sailrite kit, with no damage other than light fraying which he was able to repair with heat sealing. Since then he has deployed it several more times, in far worse conditions than we experienced, with no further damage. Reading through the DDDB I was not able to find any mention of damage to cones during JSD deplyments, although there was no data on multihulls. It may be that I was doing something wrong, but I can't imagine what. The only difference I could discern between my experience and those I have read about is the speed of the boat while lying to the drogue. While 4 knots was certainly comfortable in the conditions we were in, it may have been fast enough to allow damage to the cones which may not have been damaged at lower speeds. Also, I can't help but wonder what our speed might have been had the wind been gusting to 65 knots instead of 55, if the seas had been 40' instead of 20'. I would love to hear from other multihullers who have used a JSD to see if they had a similar experience.