boatload of whisker pole questions

[markxengineerin]

The boat is a Pacific Seacraft 37, now that the whisker pole is finally rigged, I'm looking for advice on better singlehanded procedures to use it after my 1st try "winging it" did not go perfectly.

Deploying
1)Started with furled genoa
2)Clipped on extra halyard to pole outboard end (topping lift), put it under a bit of tension and cleated it off.
3)Began to lower pole inboard end on mast, simultaneously finagling outboard end over staysail sheets to the point where it could be clipped onto Genoa sheet (any particular spot? Maximum forward towards sail seems smart?). During this time, the pole was swinging back and forth, crashing hard into furled staysail, length adjustment came unclipped and extended pole hard into deck, with no way to re-shorten it until pole is “down” enough to access adjustment cleats on mast end. As the pole gets longer, it gets harder and harder to finagle it around sheets + lifelines.
Other than not having the cleat come loose, what else can be done to make this easier? It seems a lot for one person to lower the pole, set the length, and control the outboard end, all while not losing balance on deck.

How to decide on length of pole to use? Longer pole for a given sail area = flatter sail? My understanding is that it won't matter much, for pure running?

Length adjustment of this pole is only possible when lowered almost fully due to height of cleats. Can one lower just the inboard end to make an adjustment, or must lower the halyard too? Have to furl sail first or no?


Control lines- Foreguy/afterguy used commonly by cruisers?
Currently I'm only using the topping lift to set height of outboard end, "pole height adjuster" to adjust height of inboard end. Both are at the mast, not cockpit.

Conditions/Use cases
1)Wing on wing, light air. At what wind level (if any) does this become unsafe? 2) How many degrees away from dead downwind can wing on wing be effective? Mainly I'm looking to pick up speed and stability on the many dead downwind passages that happen running parallel to land, where wind seems to follow curvature of shoreline.
3). Staysail only, running dead downwind in heavy conditions, to stop “side switching” and sheet vibration. Can most poles work for the staysail as well? Mine may be too long (?), haven't tried yet. Is there a way to measure + confirm?

Takedown procedure- not yet attempted
1)furl sail/loosening topping lift as needed (should it be loosened entirely as 1st step?)
2)Lower inboard side as needed, until I have access to shorten pole as needed so the sail can fully furl (not sure this is necessary or not)
3)Shorten pole to minimum (?)
4)Unclip pole from genoa sheet (how to keep it from losing control at this point? Foreguy/afterguy keep tension? Seems tough as a single-hander even if those controls exist.
5)Raise inboard end and finagle outboard end back into holder on mast.

Probably impossible to answer all these questions especially for a particular setup, but any tidbits of advice are great.

[TrentePieds]

Perhaps, given your screen name, I my make bold and suggest you go back to first principles :-)

You know, I'm sure, that your theoretical maximum speed in flat water (your "hull speed") is 1.35(LWL^1/2), or thereabouts. In your case just over 7 knots.

Your next job is to calculate how much sail area you need to carry for any given wind strength to achieve 7 knots. No sense in calculating beyond that since all that happens, if you "over-press" a boat and try to make it go faster than "hull speed", is that the boat gets uncontrollable. A spreadsheet is useful.

You are asking for advice only about going "dead down wind" (DDW). So, drawing on the drafting skills you learned in engineering school, draw sail plans (plural!!) that, within the dimensional constraints of your existing standing rig, will tell you the dimensions of the main and single headsail you will need to carry to reach 7 knots.

THEN you can begin to think about how to handle each of those sail plans.

Where will you get the data on what amount of power required to propel the boat at given speeds? You could try running "measured mile"s under power ONLY at steady RPM on flat water and plotting your HP output (from the engine's published power curve) against speed through the water (STW) as calculated from your "measured mile" runs.

That will get you somewhere in the ballpark for what sort of HP your sails will have to generate.

The rest is pretty basic engineering.

All the best

TrentePieds

[Bellinghamster]

I've only had fixed length poles, always "single handed" the pole for both downwind genoa and spinnaker. Always used fore and aft guys in addition to the topping lift to control the pole position (except the once or twice that I learned better from). Pole length a bit longer than mast to clew of the furled sail (130 % genoa).
My poles have stowed along the lifelines, the forward end hung from a line loop so it has a bit of wiggle room, and positioned so can I unclip the aft end leaving the forward end clipped in, lift up the aft end and clip it onto the pole car on the mast. Mast car height about level with the clew of the sail so the pole is roughly horizontal while sailing.

Order of operations for poling out the genoa:
1) start with the sail fully furled (it just makes things a lot safer/easier!)
2) decide which side you want the pole on - I always pole the genoa to windward, which makes for less likely accidental jibing of the main and seems to improve sailing speed by flying the genoa "backwards" - it's surprising how much of an angle you can manage before the leech backwinds. (Dead downwind will always be slower and rolly compared to angling a bit to get the sails acting as a wing rather than a parachute, even 10 degrees helps a lot - boat speed increases which bring the apparent wind forward and next thing you konw you're clipping along comfortably on a nice broad reach)
3) lift the aft end of the pole and clip it to the mast car. (leave the forward end anchored, or clip it to a cord loop hanging off the bow rail to keep it controlled but allow it to move enough that you can get the aft end clipped)
4) attach pole topping lift - note - be aware of potential chafe when the pole is in it's final position!
5) lift the forward end of the pole by hand (not the topping lift) an attach fore and aft pole guys. I use by bow and midship mooring cleats. I had marks on my guys for the proper length/position to cleat - aft guy just short enough to keep the pole from slamming into the forestay or cutter stay. Fore guy similar to keep the pole off the shrouds at the longest but cleated again snubbed temporarily to keep the pole near the bow so you can reach it.
6) slack the sheet from the winch and clip it through the end of the pole.
7) slack the snubbed foreguy enough so you can hoist the pole with the topping lift to approximately clew height. (alternately slack it completely to it's "long" length - the pole may swing but the guys keep it from hitting anything and the sheet friction should slow it down a lot.
8) gybe or chicken gybe if necessary to get the main on the correct side
9) unfurl the headsail. The foreguy should keep the pole off the shrouds and the sheet should pull through the end of the pole. Ideally the foreguy length is such that it's just a little slack when the pole is at the clew fully unfurled (i.e. mark the guy so it's easier to set it up next time!)
10) fine adjust as necessary - if it's rolly, I'll tighten fore and aft guys to keep the pole end from lifting. Sheeting in tighter will flatten the sail, but don't forget to slack the foreguy as appropriate. If I'm on a broad reach I may lift the pole higher (topping lift) and let it forward (slack aft guy and sheet) to give the leech (now the luff?) more belly and reduce the tendency to backwind.

takedown is the opposite: slack the aft guy to it's "long" position, ease the sheet and furl the headsail (on my boats the pole end has always stayed near the clew), shorten up the fore guy and lower the topping lift, then shorten the fore guy more so you can grab the forward end of the pole, unclip the sheet and clip the pole to the loop on the bow rail, disconnect and tie off or stow guys and topping lift and finally unclip the pole from the mast and move it to it's stowed location.

When we had a cutter (CSY44), the staysail was on a club boom so didn't need a pole - I ran a preventer from the club boom end to the bow cleat a couple times, combination boom vang and preventer. When squalls hit we'd just fall off more and run with the wind. If you habitually keep the pole guys adjusted so they're not too slack you can always furl the headsail at any time, just leaving the pole in position (we often do that coming into an anchorage, then put away the pole at our leisure). If you want to partially furl the headsail you should slack the aft guy to allow the pole to stay near the clew, but not necessary in an "emergency" i.e. squall.

[Grith]

Other uses for whisker/spinnaker poles.
After attachment on the dingy bow tow mount the lift is carried out from the cockpit with a sheet winch.
I store it vertically up the mast still attached to the mast ring but have a headsail furler support at the steaming light position due to my yacht being trailerable which holds it off from slapping on the mast.

[markxengineerin]

@Bellinghamster thanks, those procedural tips are what I'm looking for. For some reason, I thought it was possible/common to get away without the guys, but I think I'll add them. I like the cord loop idea to limit the flailing.

For adjusting the pole height and length, are these things that can be done under load? Procedures that people like for those would also be great to read. My experimentation showed that was only easy to make these changes with the genoa sheet eased quite a bit, at which point (with no guys) the pole was slamming around again. The guys will fix that, but I do wonder if it should be possible to make adjustments under "full load" if everything is rigged ideally.

[CrispyCringle]

I have a Forespar whisker pole. They suggest making the length of the pole the same length as the of the foot of the jib, except for overlapping sails. Mark the pole for future use. You were correct in attaching the jaws to the jib sheet while furled. You should attach at the tack point with the jaws facing down. Pole height should be adjusted level. I use a topping lift, but no guys. Although for long term use I sometimes use the lazy sheet as a foreguy by bringing it forward and tieing off. Pole out on the potentially upwind side and run wing and wing.

[markxengineerin]

My pole is also a Forespar, and it looks like it's almost 2x as long as it needs to be, in a fully extended position. Although, maybe that's normal, in that it's not desirable to be too far extended? It seems shorter would be more convenient, and allow better use with staysail (?)

[CrispyCringle]

You dont want it to be fully extended. Much stronger with the tubes doubled up. Go to their website. You can get a instruction sheet for all of them, Im sure.

What kind of boat do you have? My staysail is only really good for into the wind situations.

[Sailor Sailor]

I carry a telescoping whisker pole and a spinnaker pole, along with a symmetrical and an asymmetrical spinnaker. Sailing dead downwind or on a broad reach in light air works best with a symmetrical spinnaker. In beam reach or fluky shifting conditions, I fly an asymetrical spinnaker. I use the whisker pole in place of the symmetrical spinnaker in heavier wind, or when I do not have time to set up the symmetrical spinnaker. You can use the whisker pole from DDW to almost beam reach with good effect.

I rarely use a topping life with the whisker pole. You experiment and guess at the appropriate length, usually as long as you can possibly manage, blanket the full jib behind the main on a broad reach, secure both ends of the pole, steer DDW, then jibe the main to go wing on wing. The fullness of the jib will keep the pole up. The pole length should drive the clew of the jib as far forward as possible. You cannot adjust it once it is attached because there is too much compressive pressure on the pole. You should be very careful when you attach any pole at the mast as you can injure yourself. It is a matter of timing. Jaws should always be up, open at the top - that way the sheet will fly up out of the jaws. To take it down, you do the same in reverse. I will detach from the mast first, the slide the outboard end of the pole aft down the jib sheet as far as I can before detaching it, moving the inboard end forward.

In heavy wind or in larger, steeper waves, you should sail broad reaches without a pole, as deep as you can manage while still filling the jib, or drop the main entirely.

https://youtu.be/ezur-7P4Leo

[Bellinghamster]

I adjust guys and topping lift under load, I have adjusted the mast car height under (light) load but it's a bit sketchy (spring pin car, have to stand on the halyard winches to reach it, and it was high, meaning the pole angle was trying to push it higher)

My fixed pole is 4" diameter and about 18ft long... too heavy and awkward for me to manage without topping lift and guys. A light whisker pole on a smaller boat wouldn't warrant as much rigging.

[markxengineerin]

After more experimentation today, keeping some tension on the genoa sheet (grabbing it by hand right on forward deck) makes all the difference in the world to damping the slamming motion when deploying/stowing the pole. Reduced motion from scary to manageable, until I get some more controls rigged.