About NOT power setting the anchor

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Now that we all understand
And yep thats the downfall and the reason I have other anchors that I can deploy on their own chain and rode

Thats also the reason I made my own 2 new hoop type anchors,
The Danforth and Bruce werent reliable,
The Bruce I had was the equivalent of throwing the chain over with nothing on the end of it,

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Thats also the reason I made my own 2 new hoop type anchors,
The Danforth and Bruce werent reliable,
The Bruce I had was the equivalent of throwing the chain over with nothing on the end of it,

The Bruce is my favorite anchor..

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yupp.. its a bitch when that happens..
I was anchored just inside Poole Harbour on my 23ft Virgo Voyager and had my Seagull outboard stripped for a service.. the tide turned and it does run fast through there when I realized the shore was slipping past when it shouldn't be.
Ended up being swept out into the entrance and onto the Sandbanks chain ferry that runs across from the Poole side to the Studland side mid Channel..
Ended up closing the entrance for half an hour till the Poole Lifeboat came and pulled us off... even if I could have got the engine running it would not have coped with the spring tide ebb.. all because a pebble jammed the Danforth fluke when it flipped.
Last time I used a Danforth..

My drive shaft had crapped itself, So I had no propulsion, and an anchor that wouldnt set, Rock stuck in it,
I hooked a piling with a rope, as I slid past it,
Eventually the shipyard sent a boat down to get me,

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The Bruce is my favorite anchor..

Yours might be a real one, Mine is Chinese, Came with the boat,

[thinwater]

"Let it soak" is probably a Chesapeake Bay figure of speak. Some places the bottom is so soft, the water just gets thicker, or at least that's the way the locals tell it.


In fact, there are two benefits to letting it soak. The first is to sink through the thick water, down to the soft mud. The second, however, has to do with soil consolidation. We all know that the longer and anchor, or even an old tire, sets in the mud, the better it is stuck. Over time, ranging from 10 minutes to an hour to days, the mud settles in around the fluke, and each successive pull will now take it down more steeply, because the mud has become more firm around the anchor. This has been studied by both construction and oil platform anchor manufacturers. I even read a study of this by Exxon. The improvement with time is typically 10-25% for large anchors, but can be over 100% for small anchors, with the typical 45-pound anchor falling about in the middle. I've done tests of multiple anchor tests and different immediate and delayed setting strategies.



And yes, it helps with Fortress too, just not as obviously, because a good size Fortress will often hold all the HP you have, if you simply go slow.



The downside, of course, is that if the anchor twists out or begins to drag, you won't get this high-holding power back. The other down side is that Fortress can be a bugger to get back!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Being an Engineering Blacksmith by trade, I have forged thousands of clevis pins,
Including 0ne 3/4 of a TON for an 8 ton anchor, 6 inch Diametre,
They can be welded both ends on a fitting, its still a clevis pin,

A clevis pin is just the pin that swivels to hold a moving shank, Shaft, Push rod, Hydraulic Ram in place,

The Danforth anchor has a clevis pin to hold the shank to the fluke,
Its welded both ends to stop it falling out, Its still a clevis pin,

Refer to the post above that actually names the parts of the Danforth anchor direct from tie-down engineering. It is stock not a clevis.

[glanrock]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is a great question, and one I've tried to pose, especially to those who insist on "the first in rules the roost." If you're not there to tell everyone that you've decided to lay 10:1, how can you expect others to know?

Most boaters use a typical range of between 4:1 to 7:1. If I come in, in the absence of any other information, what else am I to assume other than 7:1? But if 'the first in' has instead decided to lay 10:1, and we go bump in the night, who's really at fault (and I don't necessarily mean just legally).



My view is that if you are around other boaters, you should adhere to norms as much as possible. In the absence other information I believe 7:1 is the outside scope for most situations. If you are the sole boat who demands 10:1 in a crowded space, then my view is you should go somewhere else.

BTW, same goes for places with a shorter-scope norm. If you insist on being the odd-duck, then anchor in places without others.

I've never gone so far as 10:1 as I feel certain I would end up circling into other boats, especially if I were in Annapolis. I am super, perhaps too much so, cautious when it comes to anchoring near other boats. I wake up every few hours regardless and look out the ports to see where I am, how hard the wind is blowing, and if it changed direction significantly (compared to when I went to sleep).



Thanks for the response!

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Refer to the post above that actually names the parts of the Danforth anchor direct from tie-down engineering. It is stock not a clevis.

Stock is the bar that protrudes out each side,
Clevis allows the shank to move on the fluke,
The rocking action, With out it, It would be a solid fixture,

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I have dived in a lake that had a layer of gelatinous ooze over the bottom and I presume the idea of soaking comes from the notion that you want to let the anchor settle into that. But if a 15 or 20 or 45 lb anchor can't get through that right away, something is wrong. I'd really have to see the video on soaking, I am skeptical. If you lay out out 5:1 or 7:1 or especially 10:1 and pull on it and the anchor is not setting, regardless of bottom composition, then I put my money on the fault lying with the anchor or fouling (or you have dropped it on gravel or solid lava bottom,) not any lack of soaking. . .

Read Thinwater's excellent explanation above.


"Soaking" really is a thing; any Solent or Chesapeake sailor can tell you. Not to get through the "thick water" layer of ooze of course -- you are right that any metal object will fall straight through that. But there is a gradation of density in such bottoms, and there is a layer which is not dense enough for your anchor to get stuck in, but dense enough to form a ball around the anchor and clog it, preventing it from setting. THAT layer is what you have to let the anchor settle through.


In my experience, Fortress and Danforth are the only anchors that you don't need to "soak" in soft mud. In fact soaking may be futile with them since they (especially Fortress) are very light compared to surface area. The explanation is surely in the large surface area for weight, which allows these anchors to hold in those layers of mud which won't hold other anchors, hold at least enough to drive the anchor deeper and deeper, rather than skidding through and clogging up like other anchors.


I've owned and used a lot of different anchors over the decades. The worst anchor in soft mud, even worse than CQR, in my experience, was the Rocna. Surprisingly good was the Delta which my boat was delivered with (and which was not good at much else). Better I think than my Spade, which IS subject to clogging, much less than the Rocna, but still. Makes me wonder how the Excel performs in soft mud? I wonder if Steve has tested it?


I would be using my Fortress in soft mud but for one thing. In really soft mud, the Fortress holds amazingly well, almost preternaturally well, HOWEVER -- getting it back on board the next morning can be hell. When the mud is really soft, the damn thing just wants to tunnel to China. I have more than an hour upon occasion pulling it out. I used to use the Fortress in the Solent just because it saved so much time setting, but then I realized the difficulties of the next morning cancelled out any convenience gained in the evening. But if I were in an emergency situation where the main thing is stopping or getting the anchor set quickly, in soft mud -- Fortress by far the best choice.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Yours might be a real one, Mine is Chinese, Came with the boat,

Ahh, a Bluce......

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Makes me wonder how the Excel performs in soft mud? I wonder if Steve has tested it?

I did conduct a test in a mud that is much much softer than my normal "sandy mud" test area. However, this mud is likely not as soft as the Chesapeake type ooze. No special setting technique was used. Just drop while idling in gear.

Holding power, from lowest to highest:

17 lb. Sarca Excel #1 (steel)
45 lb. Delta
14 lb. Northill
11 lb. Bruce
21 lb. Spade S60
13 lb. Mantus
12 lb. Viking
45 lb. CQR
65 lb. Forford
47 lb. Super SARCA
44 lb. Bruce
55 lb. Vulcan
45 lb. Spade s100 (steel)
45 lb. Rocna
46 lb. Ultra
47 lb. Excel #5 Steel
27 lb. Excel #5 Aluminum (same as steel)
45 lb. Modified Manson
45 lb. Mantus
10 lb. Fortress

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeyuswDFKKo

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Let's start with this:


Chotu

"I [can't] see why everyone else uses their engine to pull on the anchor to try to set it. I literally throw mine overboard and dump out 10:1, or at worst case, 8:1. Nature does the rest. Never dragged once in my life and I’ve lived at anchor more nights than on land in my life...."


I've written about power setting, and often there are good reasons. You don't know the bottom texture, firm vs. very soft. You wonder about weeds. Maybe it is hardpan. Often there is not enough wind to "let nature do" anything.

On the other hand, when the wind changes, the anchor will eventually turn to meet it (how much wind that requires varies considerably--separate topic), and as many have posted images or video, the anchor will surface to some extent in the process of turning. Even if deeply set, it will come up near the surface. Some anchors just shuffle flat. Some tip to some extent and then reset. So whether aggressively powerset or left to nature (assuming enough wind to get the fluke mostly buried), it still ends up near the surface.

Is it better to have the anchor...

• Lightly set, ready to rotate. Some anchors are really good at this.
• Really powered in, which might result in a violent trip when the wind rotates enough to pop it loose. Maybe it will be jammed with mud, or maybe it won't reset due to rapid boat drift (it took a tight rode to rotate it). Might as well set the Fortress deep, of course, since it doesn't shuffle for beans.

I'm not advocating just "throwing the anchor overboard." There are sensible methods for laying an anchor under sail. You should know how to do this. There will come a day when you will need to.

And no calling "idiot." I'm a long way from an anchoring idiot, I'm just trying to start a challenging conversation. Is a deep set anchor inherently safer than one more lightly set?


One case will be soft mud, where a lightly set anchor is just in the mush and won't hold beans. Weeds are a dicey case anyway you look at it. If yawing is a problem deep is better... but you really should fix the yawing.


Another case is sticky mud and a very rapid wind change(violent squall), where the anchor was likely powerset in the wrong direction, and now will trip loaded with mud. Maybe letting the wind rotate it would have been better.

Well, I sold my engine some 12 years ago, so I drop anchor under sail, no dramas.
The wind eventually sets the anchor.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Yes, let nature do the rest........see attached picture

I've known some damn experienced boaters who insist power-setting is not necessary. I think it's nuts not to powerset, but where otherwise credible boaters seem to recommend it, it's muddy bottoms such as Chesapeake.

Peter
Attachment 229958

For me power setting is not necessary I don't have an engine.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Panope

I did conduct a test in a mud that is much much softer than my normal "sandy mud" test area. However, this mud is likely not as soft as the Chesapeake type ooze. No special setting technique was used. Just drop while idling in gear.

Holding power, from lowest to highest:

17 lb. Sarca Excel #1 (steel)
45 lb. Delta
14 lb. Northill
11 lb. Bruce
21 lb. Spade S60
13 lb. Mantus
12 lb. Viking
45 lb. CQR
65 lb. Forford
47 lb. Super SARCA
44 lb. Bruce
55 lb. Vulcan
45 lb. Spade s100 (steel)
45 lb. Rocna
46 lb. Ultra
47 lb. Excel #5 Steel
27 lb. Excel #5 Aluminum (same as steel)
45 lb. Modified Manson
45 lb. Mantus
10 lb. Fortress

Well that leads out my experience in eagle harbor and liberty bay and many other areas in the central Puget Sound region with my 25 pound danforth

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Too simple. For example, in very soft mud if you try to power set immediately the anchor will drag and drag. It needs to be set in stages, very lightly to start, then more a short time later. Even 10 minutes helps and should let you know if it's good, but that is still too soon to give it much power. This is more true the smaller the anchor.



So yes, I frequently anchor places where the anchor does not immediately appear to have set, but will, in the fullness of time, be well-set, either with power or wind. I suspect many have not experienced this.


---


The funny thing about this thread is the many different things I have been said to do as standard practice.

a. Anchoring in very soft mud is not like anchoring on firm sand or rock. Not at all. So why would the process always be the same? In my experience, it is not.

b. I suggested a discussion. I intentionally did not say what I thought was right. I won't do it now.

It’s interesting- my main cruising grounds are Chesapeake currently and I encounter lots of that soft mud. 95% of time the Mantus jerks me to a stop. But, in that goopy leafy stuff you find in creeks etc, a slow low RPM set without stopping always works. May take around 20-30 feet to dig in but then it’s SET. Always come up with evidence that it was deep- with mud all over rollbar and first 10 feet of chain with mud caked like it was buried

But I’ll have to try that technique also