Fuel at $1.50 per gallon

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I know I'm a bit obtuse, it comes with age. But I'm on a diet.

I’m about a decade older than you, and in that period I’ve gone from obtuse to reflexive. We’re all on a diet of some kind.

[Alan Wheeler]

Gord, this is simply what happens when positive (as opposed to normative) issues are discussed in a Socratic debate format rather than a scientific review format. We can post data and analysis, but rather than reaching a positive consensus, since the debate is seen as a normative one, the 'side' against the science will invariably turn to ad-hominem or other fallacies, which are seen as legitimate tactics.

Ummm?....yeah....and a community can have many different opinions too.

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Ummm?....yeah....and a community can have many different opinions too.

Only normative issues are open to subjective opinion. A statement like "the sun is pleasant" is a normative truth, and you may have an opinion about it. Conversely, a statement like "the sun is 75% hydrogen" is a positive one, and not subject to your opinion. Positive issues are not settled by adversarial Socratic debate, they're settled (provisionally) by data collection and scientific analysis.

[Olive Page]

Are Newton's laws of motion normative or positive?

[anotherT34C]

Newton's Laws are positive.

[Olive Page]

So where does that leave Einstein?

[anotherT34C]

I'm not sure I follow. The difference between positive and normative is the difference between 'what is' and 'what ought to be'. The former is experimentally verified only, while the latter is often a value judgment.

As far as Einstein, he didn't disprove Newton's Laws, he made them more complete by adding a term we didn't previously know was there because we lacked measurement in that regime (the very fast).

[Olive Page]

I am seeking truth

For many years Newton's laws were true

Then we find that that truth has limits - so is it still truth? It may "work" for day to day experience, but that is not necessarily truth.

The problem with concensus is that it is not necessarily true. There have been many concensuses (concencesi?) over the years that subsequently were found to be false and were replaced by a different "truth".

Scientists sometimes worry me. I remember watching a group of biologists who were doing some long term work on a group of semi wild sheep. They were trying to round these creatures up and refuse help from a chappie who was watching them - he wasn't a scientist so could not be allowed to do anything with these sheep. The fact that he was a sheep farmer who owned several hundred sheep and knew precisely from practical experience how to go about it never occurred to the scientists. So they spent an exhausting afternoon chasing these things all around the island until they (the scientists) collapsed in heaps and the sheep wandered off - laughing.

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by Olive Page

I am seeking truth

For many years Newton's laws were true

They still are. Einstein did not disprove Newton. I have little doubt that Newton+Einstein is also incomplete.

The problem with concensus is that it is not necessarily true. There have been many concensuses (concencesi?) over the years that subsequently were found to be false and were replaced by a different "truth".

I'm not claiming that consensus is necessarily true. I'm claiming that scientific consensus is more likely true.

[Alan Wheeler]

OK folks. This is not a Phylosophy debate. Lets get this back to the subject of boats or lets can it.

[Olive Page]

Ah

The smack of firm government - and just when it was getting interesting too.

OK

Canned!

[max_hyde]

Think yourselves lucky united kingdom current price (best possible price) $10.89 a gallon

[Alan Wheeler]

current price (best possible price) $10.89 a gallon

Ouch!! Do you guys have Bio available then??
Oh, did you take into account the US gall being smaller than the British?

[max_hyde]

funny you should say that!!!! no i forgot metric gallon = 5.5litres, diesel is currently $2.40 a litre, petrol (gasoline) at $2.16 a litre. Bio is no cheaper (so much for the enviroment) there is such a thing as Red Diesel (normal diesel with a red dye) which is rebated fuel, which up until now leisure boaters could use, this was around half the price of normal fuel, but from 1st november this year leisure boaters will have to pay full price, almost doubling the fuel bill to the above prices. Thank goodness for sails!!!!!!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by max_hyde

there is such a thing as Red Diesel (normal diesel with a red dye) which is rebated fuel, which up until now leisure boaters could use, this was around half the price of normal fuel, but from 1st november this year leisure boaters will have to pay full price, almost doubling the fuel bill to the above prices.

Not down here

Quite tempted to buy a (cheap) Mobo next Winter