Electric Car Economics

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You're blending two entirely separable things -EVs and "green energy". This thread is on EVs, so let's just do that.

True but car batteries require charging by some means, usually from the electric grid.

[flyingnut40]

Have you guys been keeping up on the latest technologies that allow turning seawater into electricity? Saying you would NEVER own an electric vehicle/boat might mean you miss the greatest eco-friendly development in a hundred years!! Do a bit of searching and see where our future is headed. Or you can start here!


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...6.cms?from=mdr


Dennis

[Dave9111]

[QUOTE=a64pilot;2936882]Noise makers will I believe soon be required, there was at one time a huge movement to “bell the Prius” as many claimed the blind would be run down in wholesale numbers.


I believe they are requiring sounds on electric cars somewhere in Europe.



I still find it creepy to see cars moving in parking lots almost totally silent.

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by flyingnut40

You speak mostly crap!
My BMW i3 is built in a COMPLETELY GREEN factory powered by solar and wind..... the car is 98% recyclable...... and YES it is the quickest car BMW makes..... FROM 0 to 30 mph. Tops out at 90 mph and disconnects the HV battery on ANY air bag deployment. Carbon fiber Life Cell that is stronger than steel and stays that way because it dosen't rust!
Yes it takes 10 seconds morning and night to hook up charger cable..... the rest does not involve me.

You are on a boating forum, so you should know.. how recyclable is fiberglass?
How recyclable is carbon fiber?



Basically its not recyclable. Virtually all carbon fiber and fiberglass is landfilled. So you took the hook!



So much for a green factory. Most green factories are BS.



Wind Turbine blades are being buried not far from my sister in laws house.


https://www.americanexperiment.org/2...report-decide/

[GordMay]

In June, conventional SUVs and light trucks were the most popular vehicles in America accounting for 70% of sales. They also got more expensive, The median retail price for all vehicles in the US was $36,600, an increase of 2% compared to last year.
Data analyzed by research house Cox Automotive* show EV prices dropped from $64,300 to $55,600, a 13.4% decline over the previous year. Most of that is thanks to Tesla’s success selling the Model 3, which has a starting retail price of $38,990 before incentives. The drop would be even more pronounced if it were not for the fact that most legacy carmakers are still focusing on rolling out luxury EVs, such as the $74,800 Audi e-tron.
Average fuel-efficiency rules mandating 54.5 miles per gallon set to take effect by 2025 (despite the Trump administration’s attempts to stop that from happening) EVs may soon become cost competitive. Cheaper batteries, more models, and economies of scale, as manufacturers ramp up assembly lines, will likely continue to further drive down EV prices and spur demand.
* ➥ https://www.coxautoinc.com/news/over...tion-to-sales/

According to the US Department of Energy:
“... On a national average, it costs less than half as much to travel the same distance in an EV than a conventional vehicle. In addition, some utilities offer even cheaper rates at night, which can further reduce your electricity costs...”
➥ https://www.energy.gov/eere/electric...-vehicle-costs

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Op here, with an update.

I haven't bought an i3 yet, but I have been using them through a car sharing service.

A great vehicle! BMW really knocked themselves out - it's a tour de force of design and technology, far more interesting to my tastes than Tesla.

My lifestyle has gone so far down the road away from car ownership that I'm not sure I will be going back soon. When you don't have a car waiting for you downstairs, you live differently, and it's not all bad. I use the bicycle most of all, and it seems the extra cost of buying groceries in the expensive downtown shop is offset by savings in time and car use. Plus I feel healthier and more vigorous getting around under my own power. It shrinks my world, but the pedestrian and cycling radii are still full of lots of things - I live in the center of the city. I spend a few hundred euros a month on uber, but almost all claimed on my expenses.

Besides that, I'm back to living a couple of international borders away from the boat, so I'm splitting my time among multiple countries. It's stupid to leave a car standing idle for weeks at a time.

Thanks for the update. Seems like a good idea to me. We've also given up our car, due to travel and lack of use.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Dave9111]

I live in the country and I can see how an electric car could be an advantage. There is no public transportation near us.

My days fall into two different categories. I either drive around town (town is 13 miles away) running errands and put as much as 100 miles on the car in a busy local drive day. Then there are the other days when I have to do out of town (even further out!) and I end up driving 2-3 hours and don't return for a few days. Most of my days are local, so an EV would work for those days. For out of state/town travel a gas powered vehicle would work better.

An EV has potentially a LOT less maintenance than a gas powered car.

On occasion, I tow or haul a lot of gear and that requires a truck or van. That will likely be a gas or diesel powered vehicle for some time as EVs aren't there yet. For instance, towing a 4000 lb boat and trailer to a lake 2 hours away. I already own several vehicles of various types as I use them for my business.



As Gord said, SUVs have become very popular which is evident in most parking lots. What I find hilarious, is that the SUV is basically a Mini Van with rounded corners. The "Sport Utility Vehicle" started with the Chevy Blazer, Ford Bronco etc. The modern SUV is nothing like those vehicles.


Everyone wanted to sit higher than a sedan, but no one wanted to be driving a "Mini Van"/ kid transporter, etc - so the modern "SUV" was invented! Ha ha....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by flyingnut40

Have you guys been keeping up on the latest technologies that allow turning seawater into electricity? Saying you would NEVER own an electric vehicle/boat might mean you miss the greatest eco-friendly development in a hundred years!! Do a bit of searching and see where our future is headed. Or you can start here!


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...6.cms?from=mdr


Dennis

The efficiency of this process is 0.28%!


https://phys.org/news/2016-05-electr...-hydrogen.html


Two orders of magnitude worse than an ordinary photovoltaic cell.


No doubt there will be breakthroughs somewhere, but this does not appear to be it.

[jmorrison146]

A friend that consults for the auto industry says that if you consider all the resources and energy it takes to build, run, and dispose of a car, the "greenest" thing you can do is to drive the car you have, maintain it well, and drive it until it dies a natural death, even if it's a '68 Buick land yacht that gets 12 mpg.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmorrison146

A friend that consults for the auto industry says that if you consider all the resources and energy it takes to build, run, and dispose of a car, the "greenest" thing you can do is to drive the car you have, maintain it well, and drive it until it dies a natural death, even if it's a '68 Buick land yacht that gets 12 mpg.

If by "green" you are talking about carbon emissions -- this has been analyzed and found to be untrue:


https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cle...e#.VwKfiWM5Go4


The carbon emissions produced in the process of manufacturing and recycling are fairly trivial compared to the emissions produced in operation.


This is a little bit like the old myth that nuclear power is not "green" because of the supposedly large amount of carbon emitted in the construction of nuclear power plants -- total myth.




Also, the "greenness" of electric vehicles depends greatly on where the electrical power comes from. When it comes from obsolete coal fired plants, the advantages compared to conventional power are small.


When it comes from biomass, wind, solar, or nuclear -- the difference is huge.


In Finland, only 11% of electrical power is produced from non-renewable hydrocarbons, and only 7% from coal. They get almost as much power from wind, 6.7%, as from coal. The single largest source of power is nuclear, 25%, which will be increased to 60% in the next years as new reactors are built as part of Finland's plan to phase out hydrocarbon power entirely.


Sweden gets half of its electrical power from wind, solar and hydro, and another 40% from nuclear. Despite the cold climate and high energy consumption per capita, Swedes emit 4 times (!) less carbon per person than Americans.


In places like this, electric cars make a huge difference. Driving an electric car is practically carbon-free in these places.


The other thing the Nordic countries show us is that it is not all that painful to reduce carbon emissions, and it can be done almost entirely using market mechanisms.



Nuclear power and wind power are already the cheapest forms of power anyway. For political reason in Sweden there was a huge tax on nuclear power, which was abolished in 2010 when people started to wake up to climate change.



Another fun statistic -- 60% of all new cars sold in Norway are plug-in, either pure electric (40%), or plug-in hybrid.

[double u]

I am surprised no mention is made of supplying electric power on say highways via power rails or road surface or some such system. On secondary roads a small combustion engine or battery power could be used. How about overhead wires???

[Hardhead]

I'd think with increased adoption of the technology, economies of scale would lower costs of production and batteries. It might not make strict economic sense now, but it's heading that way. Green electricity seems to be the biggest issue.

[Dockhead]

Already being done in Sweden:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden

Originally Posted by double u

I am surprised no mention is made of supplying electric power on say highways via power rails or road surface or some such system. On secondary roads a small combustion engine or battery power could be used. How about overhead wires???

[DeepFrz]

One must be careful about where you get information on costs of producing electricity, range of EVs etc. There is so much FUD being spread by big oil/big chemical that you really have to look for your information. Information such as wind energy is the cheapest form of electrical energy production now.

I see so much misinformation being promulgated here when the discussion turns toward EVs and renewable energy.

[double u]

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...pens-in-sweden
The only way, imho, for electric individual mobility. One could make the step to “automated driving“ at the same time: no more overtaking, changing lanes, different speeds & spacings (but much less revenue from speeding tick.ets...)