A Realization

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Isn't this an existing vessel that used to have stainless steel plates with backers?

I'm pretty sure he's never had chainplates installed at all on this boat. So the choice was between making the composite ones or having stainless ones made.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I am building the boat to have the perfect craft.

Chofu -
I have read the entire thread and this sentence is what stood out to me. I am a cruising noob, but I don't think this issue is all that different in cruising than in many other sports/hobbies/recreations. Or life in general. I admire people who seek perfection. I don't myself. The seeking of perfection is a never ending quest to reach for the ring, instead of getting to a practical end of a problem. The folks who seek perfection have a willingness to suffer in their quest, which is why I admire them. I don't mean this in a literal mental health sense, but it is a form of madness because the simple fact is that it can't be achieved.
I sense that you are suffering. You want perfection and you want a practical end goal and you cannot have both. I would encourage you to think hard about which one of these two that you want and then give up on the other one. I humbly suggest that once you do so, you can be at peace and do what you need to do. You have a chance to be happy if you make that decision. If you continue to want both, you are pretty much guaranteed to never be happy.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I'm pretty sure he's never had chainplates installed at all on this boat. So the choice was between making the composite ones or having stainless ones made.

This is correct.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

It is a new boat that has never had chainplates.

No matter what chainplates he uses he needs epoxy and someone else to do it.

This is also correct.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Chotu, I had to google composite chain plate to get an idea what you were talking about.

I found your comments listed on ... thread .... https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-258642-9.html

I also found some pictures of what they look like doing an image search on Google.

Okay...they are neat...however, come on....haven't you led yourself down the yellow brick road?

Isn't this an existing vessel that used to have stainless steel plates with backers?

I am sure you invested a pretty penny in these new fangled composite plates...however, is it not at this point just easier to push forward and install stainless steel plates so you can get the mast up.

I agree setting the cross beam is important to have a structurally sound vessel is important. What is the hold up on installing that piece?

I’m sorry. You’re not understanding a lot about the boat. Here. Let me try to fill it in for you. Most of the other people reading this thread understand everything. But I’ll go through it again for you.

Composite chain plates are significantly faster and easier to do than the metal ones would be. Just look. Six months trying to get the metal work done just to attach a pre-existing crossbeam to the bows of the boat.

The composite chain plates are two days of work. Plus the time it takes to cut out the fiberglass from the roll. Significantly faster, significantly better. Not significantly cheaper.

This is not an existing vessel. This vessel arrived as 55 gallon drums of epoxy, pallets of rolls of fiberglass, big crates of corecell etc.

No. It’s significantly harder and takes a lot more time to do the metal ones than it does to do composite. That’s why I went with composite. It’s easier. It’s faster.

And finally, no, the crossbeam has nothing to do with the structural integrity of the boat whatsoever. A crossbeam on a catamaran doesn’t function in that way. What a crossbeam does is provider place for the forestay to attach. It then takes the forestay load and transfers it over to the bows of the boat which handle that load. It doesn’t do anything else structurally. It simply transfers the forestay load to somewhere on the hulls so the mast can be held up.

It does have one other function I have found to be essential. It is a place you can put an anchor roller which holds the rode in place so that it doesn’t scrape on the bows of your boat. I have some damage from mine scraping on the bows in the past. I don’t want to go back out without a crossbeam installed.

The crossbeam has two custom stainless pieces at the end that have to be put on so that you can bolt it to the bows of the boat. No one will do the stainless work. It was mentioned in this thread that someone might do it, but they disappeared. Like everyone else.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Chofu -
I have read the entire thread and this sentence is what stood out to me. I am a cruising noob, but I don't think this issue is all that different in cruising than in many other sports/hobbies/recreations. Or life in general. I admire people who seek perfection. I don't myself. The seeking of perfection is a never ending quest to reach for the ring, instead of getting to a practical end of a problem. The folks who seek perfection have a willingness to suffer in their quest, which is why I admire them. I don't mean this in a literal mental health sense, but it is a form of madness because the simple fact is that it can't be achieved.
I sense that you are suffering. You want perfection and you want a practical end goal and you cannot have both. I would encourage you to think hard about which one of these two that you want and then give up on the other one. I humbly suggest that once you do so, you can be at peace and do what you need to do. You have a chance to be happy if you make that decision. If you continue to want both, you are pretty much guaranteed to never be happy.

I agree completely with your post. I had set out to make the perfect boat in the beginning, and I really did. This thing is amazing. In the finishing of the little odds and ends that I have to do, I’m not going for perfection.

As long as this thing sails well and is comfortable inside, that’s all I care. I’m taking lots of shortcuts inside putting the interior together. No one will ever know that, and they are not short cuts that are in any way bad, but they are just faster ways of doing things. Take the walls for instance. On most boats, they fill in the weave with bog and then sand the entire interior of the boat. And then paint it. Hell no. I’m not doing that. That’s years of work. Instead I am putting premade surfaces over the rougher surfaces so they smooth out instantly without sanding. Stuff like that.

Everything else is already kind of done. I just can’t get anyone to do the metal work. As you can see in this thread. Tetepare vanished once I took him up on the offer. I’m sure his friend never answered. Like every other metal worker. They don’t want to work.

There is one guy who was ready to go from this thread and private messaged me. But he expect me to pay for him to drive a 1 ton from California to Florida, set up camp at the marina, have 50 amp 240 V service when there is no power at all at the marina, since he can’t set up camp at the marina due to the rules, I would probably end up having to pay for a hotel or something. None of that makes sense. Not for a little bit of metal work. So I have to get it done somehow locally. There have also been people on the forum who have offered to do some of it, but that was when I was looking to get the cross beam made. I ended up buying one premade. So I just need two little ends made to attach it to the boat and trim a few inches off it since it came off a Chris White Atlantic 55. It’s 3 inches too long. That’s it.

The Mast is a little bit more work, because I need a splice done. It’s still just a couple days of work. It’s insane that I can’t get anyone to do any of this.

The metal shop it’s at now has been sitting on it for four or five months. I contact them once a week. And they don’t do anything.

So, I’m not going for perfection here. I already did that. I have a perfect hull. In many ways the boat is pretty good already. But I need the damn pieces on the end of the cross beam. Starting to actually get angry at this point.

[MWhite]

Wow, this is a sad state of affairs for you. Sunk costs are always hard to come to terms with, especially with something as personal as a boat you have built yourself. Of course, you will make the right decision for you in the end. But what stands out to me is your position regarding how much you, the world, the girlfriend, have all changed. You are not even sure that cruising is what you want to do anymore. And thus any delay in moving forward with the boat is even more mind numbingly irritating. Time passes. We get older, things happen. My suggestion is to step away for awhile and go do something you know you will have fun doing; whatever that is. Get some clarity. It seems very much like you are leaning towards selling and won't have a problem finding a buyer. Maybe it will be easier to make that decision from a place where you are enjoying life again. Then, if you don't want to keep struggling with the build process, go for the sale with a free heart and move forward in your life whether that is on land or sea or a combination of both. I say this with confidence, sitting aboard our 47 foot sailboat, getting ready to haul her out and removed the stick for boat work projects that feel unlimited. In the back of my mind there is that wee voice that says, "better hurry up and get this girl back out on the ocean before you stop wanting to do that/have too much body pain to enjoy that/have a grandchild/insert other reason here". Change is inevitable and it happens when we aren't looking. Best wishes for a fulfilling future, however that looks for you. And if you let the boat go, let it go with the joy of turning over what could be a life changing project for someone else.

[pbmaise]

If you can provide a drawing...I would trust these people to make it and ship it to you.

Precision of Phuket - what other yacht and boat owners tell us

Precision of Phuket - yacht plumbing, stainless steel, marine electrical and running gear services provided

Including shipping it would be likely cheaper or about the same as having it done locally.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ok. Here is the part.

In the picture you see the crossbeam and the little stainless fitting that connects it to the hull.

That’s what I need (as well as a trim of the crossbeam so it fits. It’s 3” too long.

I'm trying to figure out the drawings. Here are my personal points of confusion:

Angle: "verify angle with hull." Machine shops need that angle, but I don't see it anywhere.

Cross member: I'm not getting how the cross member is secured to the fitting. Further, going back to the photos, if I were to just trim 3' off one end, it looks like potentially important elements would be lost- pad eye, the through-bolt hole, etc.

If an idiot like me can't understand the assembly, and the drawings, and the instructions, there's a chance that a machine shop won't either.

I have two machine shops that can do this type of work for me, though in my experience, even with good drawings it takes face-to-face time to work out the questions, and usually the prototype reveals "issues". And, as I discovered with my welder, if I'm not precise in my explanation I can get other than what I asked for- and it's my fault.

I'd have taken the drawings to Thailand. The fittings could be made there. Lots of places in Bangkok, Ayuttaya, etc. that do fabrication. Vietnam too. Surely you must know someone in Bangkok you can ask for a referral; unless one is up to no good, most Thai are very happy to help.

[Madehn]

Seems to me that you are at the point where smallish obstacles have become enormous and are aggravated by your health issues. It also appears to affect your general attitude and approach to life in general. So I guess my advice is
Know when to hold them
Know when to fold them
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

I think it is time to run.
If you keep the boat I think you should name it DRAMA QUEEN for everything that has gone on with it. 😀. Wish you the best but I think it is time to chalk this one up in the experience column and move on. If you hate building boats then why spend SIGNIFICANT part of your life doing it. Time is one thing we can never get more of.

Perfection is the mortal enemy of good enough.

Best of luck

[Dave9111]

I'm an engineer.
I run my own consulting company.

Sounds to me like you have supplier issues.

I have a friend who owns a large "sheetmetal" shop in north central Indiana. He has a very large air conditioned shop ( great fabricators like to work in good conditions) and some extremely skilled workers and engineers working for him. He has been very successful.

He has millions of $$ in machinery, brakes, CNC lasers, waterjets, etc.

Anyway his company is very well known in the midwest.

If you want them to give you a quote on some fabrications, that should not be a problem. I know they are busy, but they crank out a lot of parts. They keep stainless sheet and plate on the racks. They also keep various grades of aluminum sheet and plate in stock as well.

They have a new large CNC laser that can cut up to, I believe, 1" plate. They also have expert welders, and every type of bending and cutting equipment you can imagine.

If your suppliers can't get materials, that's one thing. If they can't get it done once they have the materials, then that's a problem and you probably need a different supplier. I think that many fabricators in the midwest have about a 1 month backlog right now. Maybe a little more or less.

Let me know if you need a referral. These guys are priced right as well. They are very efficient.

Regarding getting things done in Florida; Florida should be getting nice towards the end of Sept. I would suggest St. Augustine or Jacksonville. Jacksonville has a lot more industry than further south. In my mind, anything, south of St. Augustine is tourist central. Great for getting a suntan, doing a fishing charter, but not much else! I don't think much serious fabrication work gets done south of Jacksonville on the east coast of FL, unless you are in the aerospace business. For one thing, it's simply too hot. If I was a skilled welder, I wouldn't be looking for work in southeast FL!
Put on a leather jacket, gloves, and full helmet and fire up a welder and you will know why.

Dave

[pbmaise]

Since your cross beam is longer than required, isn't it simple to just hack off a few inches and ship a sample of it to a machine shop and request them to make pieces that fit the sample?

Your angles do not need to be exactly, however, the angle between the forestay attachment point is easily and accurately calculated from the height of the mast, forestay connection up the mast, and distance from mast to attachment point.

[ron17571]

I personally would consider it a life challenge to finish the boat and use it. I just dropped off my van to get AC work done and one of the mechanics was pulling an oxygen cart behind him while he worked.
Consider putting an ad on Craigslist for help. Or find a couple with energy and some skills to help you complete the project with the idea that they can cruise with you. Think outside the box. if anything use the cat as a power cat until you find a friendly place with people willing to work.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I'm trying to figure out the drawings. Here are my personal points of confusion:

Angle: "verify angle with hull." Machine shops need that angle, but I don't see it anywhere.

Cross member: I'm not getting how the cross member is secured to the fitting. Further, going back to the photos, if I were to just trim 3' off one end, it looks like potentially important elements would be lost- pad eye, the through-bolt hole, etc.

If an idiot like me can't understand the assembly, and the drawings, and the instructions, there's a chance that a machine shop won't either.

I have two machine shops that can do this type of work for me, though in my experience, even with good drawings it takes face-to-face time to work out the questions, and usually the prototype reveals "issues". And, as I discovered with my welder, if I'm not precise in my explanation I can get other than what I asked for- and it's my fault.

I'd have taken the drawings to Thailand. The fittings could be made there. Lots of places in Bangkok, Ayuttaya, etc. that do fabrication. Vietnam too. Surely you must know someone in Bangkok you can ask for a referral; unless one is up to no good, most Thai are very happy to help.

You are still around! That’s great! Thank you.

So, yeah. It needs on-site work. I’ll try to explain it the best I can. The mast extension is very straightforward. It’s a simple mast splice. There’s about 1 million YouTube videos that show these going on. Here is a links to a couple.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ogZm_ghmkY0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VuDfW9ncgDs

but, looking at the cross beam, which you are right now, here is another video that shows how to do that.

At about 14 minutes into the video, you can see them putting a cross beam on a catamaran.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoJmp2GzDI

Notice there is a piece of stainless steel bolted to each hull. That’s the part I'm trying to get fabricated. Following the plans on the side that touches the boat, and then following this end (which is physically at the fabrication shop right now) on the other side.



There are a couple points that are a key.

* The beam is 3 inches too long and needs to be trimmed.
* The exact fit should probably be verified by the machinist so that they can feel comfortable to have good information. No? If not, I can get that when I’m back at the boat sometime soon.
* it’s handy to have this in person to work on. Not as handy to do it over the Internet and remotely
* Yes. Some things would be lost. The pad eye is irrelevant. The attachment structure less irrelevant of course. It would lose about an inch and a half on each end. And it might have to be reinforced just a little if some of the attachment structure is lost. That’s why it’s an in person type of thing. They took the mast and the crossbeam to the shop.

Do you have more questions? I’m happy to answer anything of course.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Since your cross beam is longer than required, isn't it simple to just hack off a few inches and ship a sample of it to a machine shop and request them to make pieces that fit the sample?

Your angles do not need to be exactly, however, the angle between the forestay attachment point is easily and accurately calculated from the height of the mast, forestay connection up the mast, and distance from mast to attachment point.

The angles that Tetepare was talking about are these ones. These are the ones that are not listed on the plan and the plans say to verify them in real life.

forestay angle is pretty much irrelevant right now.