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Old 13-08-2017, 23:11   #16
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Thanks for all the info! I'll get that book.

I think I'm coming to that conclusion too, I need to make the more pragmatic choice and get a W32.

I would not be starting up here. I'll move to where the boat is and take it from there.
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Old 14-08-2017, 08:17   #17
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrowne View Post
Thanks for all the info! I'll get that book.

I think I'm coming to that conclusion too, I need to make the more pragmatic choice and get a W32.

I would not be starting up here. I'll move to where the boat is and take it from there.
Then you'll have a lot more options. Plug your criteria (price, length, location, type) into yachtworld and see what comes up. Not trying to dissuade you from the WS but depending on where you're leaving from you'll probably have a lot of other great options you're unaware of. Also check bluewaterboats.org for other classic, capable boats.
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Old 14-08-2017, 08:32   #18
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Well, it's a bit like comparing an F250 to a Subaru Brat. Both are good boats though. My vote is definitely the W32. Much more boat, great bulwarks. It provides you enough room to really live aboard comfortably and not be "camping".
But there are other boats which are good too at reasonable cost.
Cape Dory, Island Packet, Alberg, etc.
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Old 14-08-2017, 08:41   #19
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

You need to not limit yourself to two models. You need to look at all boats in the $40K budget that would work for you. Also you need to plan on 5-10% of purchase price for survey issues and fixes and the boat will undoubtely need some upgrades. Maybe you don't have to do those upgrades ASAP but they will need to be done. Right off some type of self steering (vane) or pilot will be needed on a boat to single hand it. You could easily spend 10% of your overall budget on just that (ie $4K).

Also where are you going to live/buy the boat? I didn't catch that in the thread but you should probably find somewhere to relocate where there are a lot of boats and it's reasonable to live aboard. I'm not pressing Texas here but we do have the most reasonable liveaboard rates in the US and the 3rd largest concentration of boats in the US.
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Old 14-08-2017, 09:47   #20
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pirate Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

I have a Flicka 20 with enclosed head, trailer and Dodge truck. I used to have an Islander 36 that I brought for 25K and kept in the SF area. It was too much for me to handle by myself, the moorage fees were high and there was no way to move it to another area except with a crew or by semi. If you have a pickup 2500 or greater a trailerable sailboat such as the Flicka, Dana 24 or the Falmouth Cutter 22 are very seaworthy and provide enough room for a basic existence. You will trade mobility for stuff. If you don't have a pickup 3/4 ton or better you might consider some trailer sailors with a drop dagger board such as the Seaward 26 or the Macgregor 26. Both are light weight and can be pulled with a smaller pickup or a SUV. The light weight means that these are designed for sheltered waters or coastal cruising not open ocean.

Many of these boats are available with a trailer. Prices vary but generally fall in certain ranges.
Flicka 20' - 15K to 30K with trailer. 25K to 35K with enclosed head. Enclosed head is needed in a marina unless they have 24 hour bathrooms.
Falmouth Cutter 22' - 35K to 55K.
Dana 24' - 45K to 90K.
Seaward 26' 15K to 25K. Most come with trailer.
MacGregor 26' - 15K to 30K. Most come with trailer.

If you buy a larger yacht such as a 30 to 32 foot you need to beware that shipping say from Alaska to Washington or Maine can cost 4K to over 10K. Sure you could sail to Seattle but do so only with experienced crew. Plenty of people that have experience can single hand a 30 to 38 foot boat but that's not you. For your first boat KISS.

A good resource is a blog by "Stormy" (a guy) that lives aboard a Falmouth cutter in Bellingham, WA (or thereabouts). Google the blog "Art of Hookie". He writes about everything related to living on a small boat while working on land as a waiter. Good stuff sometimes. You can feel his ups and downs.

Hope this helps.
John
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Old 14-08-2017, 10:14   #21
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Let's cut to the quick: You can camp in a Flicka, you can live in a W32 :-)

Learning to handle the boat is the least of it. You can pick up the basics in a weekend. That won't get you to the performance standards of a good racing crew, but it will get you sailing. It'll even get you sailing safely. You could do that in either boat.

The Flicka is a 2 1/2 ton boat. The W32 is a 10 ton boat. The Flicka does not have an inboard engine unless it's been retrofitted. Outboards are a royal PITA and have no place on the transom of a crusing boat. The W32 will have an inboard diesel of about 25 or 30 HP. To put a 12HP diesel in the Flicka will cost you 15 grand. To replace the 30 horse in the Westsail will cost you 30 grand.

In your intended price range you will be looking at boats 30 to 40 years old. Provided the hull is "frozen snot", age is not, in itself, a detriment. Both hulls are FS, so that's not an issue. But a 40 year old diesel is a dodgy proposition. If you are going for ANY 40 year old boat, buy a GOOD engine (new or recently overhauled) that happens to be surrounded by a boat. Do not buy a boat that happens to have a diesel of unknown condition in it :-).

The volume of a "prism" - a boats hull - increases as the increase in length raised to the thrid power. So roughly the volume of the W32 will be 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 the volume of the Flicka, i.e the W32 will be three and a half or four times as big as the Flicka. That is the reason that the W32 weights 4 times as much as the Flicka. Cost of new construction (which is not relevant in your case) is directly proportional to displacement (weight) AND SO IS MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR COST! And that IS relevant in your case. Owning a W32 will cost you at least four times as much as owning a Flicka.

Sail area of the W32 is nearly three times that of the Flicka. Sunlight kills dacron sail cloth. Given the same exposure, each bioat will need new sails at similar intervals. Sails are expensive. The "suit" for a W32 in MORE than three times as expensive as that for the Flicka because the suit is more complex in every respect.

Need I go on :-)?

Now don't take it too hard. You said yourself you are a novice. So don't take my comments as "raining on your parade". I draw out these things because - generally - these are things that are not immediately obvious to novices. Let them therefore be a starting point for a thinking process that will, if you persist, lead you to a sounder, happier experience as a cruising man.

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Old 14-08-2017, 11:21   #22
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Neither.

I would buy something like a Cal 29 or an Ericson 32 or something that sails well, doesn't cost too much, has simple systems, and will allow you to enjoy your time on the water.

While long voyages have been made on W32 and Flicka 20s, they have "bruised a lot of ocean" in the process. Start with a boat that sails well that you can slowly upgrade and learn about boats and sailing.

If the boat has an Atomic 4, embrace it and learn about gas engines. There are thousands of happy Atomic 4 owners out there, and they end up with a quiet, smooth running engine instead of a single cylinder diesel that is trying to shake the rig out of the boat.

Other choices would include C&C boat around 30', Ranger 29 or 33, Tartans in that size range, etc.

For $15,000, you should be able to find a nice starter boat.

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Old 14-08-2017, 11:29   #23
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

The Flicka is too small for you, period dot. At 275, she'll be at a 10 degree list just when you're asleep or in the head, assuming you can get in there.

The 32 is a proven boat. Consider the Crealock Dreadnaught 32 as well. Older Tayana 37 or similar as well.

Careful equating small with ease of single handing. Once you know your boat singlehanded sailing is pretty straight forward. 40' or better sometimes actually easier and safer.

Yes there will be many expenses in bringing a 40 year old boat up to snuff, all part of the fun ;-)
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Old 14-08-2017, 11:41   #24
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Thanks everyone for such great info! Definitely a lot of food for thought...

I wasn't necessarily limiting myself to these two models. I've been using mainly bluewaterboats.org to identify models I might like and then research them, and I eventually whittled my way down to these two models over the past several months. There's a Southern Cross 31 that also caught my eye, so I'm open to other models as well. I just like these two models the best.

As far as living geographically, once I sell my place I'll have nothing tying me down here, so I plan on moving to wherever the boat I buy is located and begin learning to sail there. Once I'm confident in my abilities then I'll eventually start venturing out from there.

I like your line about the Flicka is camping and W32 is living, I think that is a good summation. And cost of maintenance is one of the top reasons the Flicka is on my short list, because I'm going to be living on a tight budget. A doable budget I believe, but tight.
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Old 14-08-2017, 14:20   #25
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Quote: "And cost of maintenance is one of the top reasons the Flicka is on my short list, because I'm going to be living on a tight budget. A doable budget I believe, but tight."

And there is the rub :-)! SIZE of vessel is not necessarily the criterion you need to look at. Complexity is! Six hundred years ago a monk by the name of William of Occam stated a principle that all sensible engineers live by today: "Reduce entities". That principle has become known as "Occam's razor" because it cuts through the crap :-). You will know it as KISS!

IMO Billy Occam is the best shipmate you can have. You simply don't NEED all the stuff people stick in their 32 foot double-enders. Some of it is nice to have, but it is NOT necessary, and the less of it you have, the lower will be your cruising costs and, often, the greater will be your cruising pleasure because your frustrations and anxiety level are kept to a minimum :-)

Example: TrentePieds is a five tonner, admittedly only half the displacement of a W32 and she has an electric capstan. But I never use it. I prefer to handle my ground tackle the way MySaintedMother taught me to do it: Manually. And when I need help, a "handy billy" goes a long way. MSM used to tell me: "If you can't repair it with a shiv and a piece of cod-line, don't go to sea in it" An exaggeration, of course, but then again, the essence of caricature is that it contains a kernel of truth. Just this morning one of our long established, respected members, a lady, replied to someone's whinging about an outboard motor and went "harumph!" I have two, they are made of oak and are called "oars" - or words to that effect. The lady is dead right :-)

I like the Westsail, mainly because I hail from the same waters as its progenitor, the famous "redningskoite" by the famous Colin Archer. Romanticism rears its ugly head again :-)! As I've said elsewhere today, every boat design is purpose specific and consists of a huge agglomeration of compromises that yield a boat that is LEAST dysfunctional for its intended purpose. That was as true of the redningsskoite as of any other. So if you are interested, we can discuss what Colin Archer's brief really was, and why the "skoite" derivatives are held by some people to be the ultimate "blue water" boat. And why there are some people here who prolly wouldn't take one as a gift ;-0)!

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Old 14-08-2017, 14:40   #26
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

The WS32 (forgetting condition variables between individual vessels) is the far better boat to live aboard and sail long distances. It is also far more expensive to keep maintain, and has a steeper learning curve for a new sailor. The Flicka is a relatively rugged small boat, that is doable as a liveaboard if you accept it as a very small one room apartment. It is easier to manage for a new sailor learning the ropes, and it can make the long sail, but in far less physical comfort. Opinion: Study more before buying, but if you are also needing a place to live ASAP, make your choice based on condition, cost, expense, and plans for the next year or two. You have to weigh things as you, and only you, know your needs and wants, and can compare them with the costs and expenses in your own specific situation. Good luck.
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Old 14-08-2017, 16:35   #27
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

1978 Fantasia 35 repowered Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Make offer, great live aboard.
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Old 14-08-2017, 21:12   #28
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Add the Allied Seawind and Seawind II to your research list. The seawind II is a 32 ft ketch and can be had for around 30k.
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Old 14-08-2017, 21:55   #29
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Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Having lived aboard an Ingrid 38 and cruised her single handed from Vancouver, BC to Alaska and back twice, once on the 'outside' then sailed her with my old partner from Vancouver to San Francisco, CA back in 1981, it is only a few feet longer than the W32 but that few feet is all living space in the middle of the boat!
If you plan on doing much sailing and will be living aboard, I woul go for either a Wetsail 32 or a slightly larger Ingrid 38. Your size at 275 lbs should not be a problem because you will find you will be much lighter and more agile after a few months of single handing and living aboard.
Good luck in your adventure! Phil
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Old 14-08-2017, 22:56   #30
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pirate Re: Westsail 32 v Flicka 20

Just for the record the Flicka 20 weighs 6,000 pounds +/- (or 3 tons (short)) and has an average sail area of 243 eliminate. ft. according to bluewaterboats.org. This gives the Flicka 81 sq. ft. of sail per ton.

The Westsail 32 weighs 19,500 pounds +/- (or a little less than 10 tons) and has an average sail area of 629 sq. ft.. The Westsail has 63 sq. ft. of sail per ton.

Both would be slow performers in light air but have a good motion in a seaway The heaver Westsail would probably have a slower motion but the Flicka would tend to ride the swell better.

I would recommend a flicka with a Yamar diesel. About half of the Flicka's have the diesel. That's what I have. Diesel is safer than gas on a boat. My engine is a single cylinder and uses about 1 quart of diesel per hour. It has electric start but I can crank if over by hand if need be. Yes it comes with a hand crank!

This boat is small to be sure, but a bicycle is small, a canoe is small and a backpack is the smallest of all. This has more room than them all combined and an ice box, stove, bed, heat (mine does) and a head to boot. You can have music, light and shelter anywhere you go. Can you take a lot of stuff? No way. Can you go anywhere? You bet.

A Flicka is an experience. It teaches you to think about what you really need. It helps you save money. It teaches you the basics. It is a basic as you can get and still go to sea.

The best part is the Flicka was built by Pacific Seacraft. PSC as a company has very high standards. All of their boats are built well with no short cuts, sturdy, reliable with no flaws in design or construction. My problems with my Flicka have been only maintenance and upkeep related. Nothing I couldn't have done myself although I admit I have professions do most of the work for me. I'm 68, I have an excuse.

Remember that to do this right you should expect to travel and inspect the boats you are interested in yourself. Get the book "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" to help eliminate bad candidates. Allow extra money for a survey (about $500) once you have a boat that you may be interested in. The Seattle and Port Townsend areas seem to have a lot of Flicka activity.

Good Luck
John
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