The Live aboard stereotype.

[Buzzman]

Are you talking the small boat harbour before the bridge, or the boat hire 'marina' further upstream?

[SV OliLuki]

It would seem a good path for Marina's to take is that of neighborhood Associations that have bylaws all neighbors must abide by. If Marina's simply maintained a set of policies that all boat owners would have to adhere to, the message from the Marina owner would be that they care what the facility looks like and what condition owners boats must be in to be permitted to dock there regardless of live aboard or not.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TCM1968

But again you are the one who turned this into an economical debate so I ask you again why would a marina owner make less profit by allowing live-aboards?

I didn't turn it into an economics debate...it is an economics issue. If marina owners expected to make more money by encouraging liveaboards, you wouldn't see rules limiting them.

Go back and re-read my posts. I explained why a marina owner will typically view liveaboards as detrimental to profits.

A mistake you are making is you assume unused boats in poor condition are encouraged. Limiting liveaboard use doesn't mean they don't want those other boats out also. It's not an either/or scenario.

[Old fella]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Are you talking the small boat harbour before the bridge, or the boat hire 'marina' further upstream?

Yeah, the little one before the bridge, I haven't been there but have a mate that lives there, I live on my boat in marsden cove northland NZ.

[Buzzman]

Well, I'll be buggered. That's not far from me, so next time I'm down there I can go check it out. It's only an hour and a half away...

Wanna PM me his boat name and details so I can look him up?

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Old fella, spughy, & OliLuki.

[TCM1968]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Go back and re-read my posts. I explained why a marina owner will typically view liveaboards as detrimental to profits

I went back and the only explanation you give is that Joe Fancy Pants will decide to take his boat elsewhere if said marina has low life live-aboards there. As I have explained there are waiting list at most desirable marinas. And if Joe goes elsewhere there are plenty of boats to take his place. So forgive me I do not agree with your notion that live-aboards are detrimental to any marinas profits.

Do you have first hand knowledge of a marina owner stating this as a reason for banning live-aboards, or is this just your assumption?

Your first response to the OP makes no sense as live-aboards are a small fraction of the overall run down boats in a marina. So that theory holds no water if the marina owner wants rid of run down boats all together.

Last and not least...I did not start this post to discuss why an individual marina owner makes that decision, I started to discuss why there is a widespread assumption amongst this forum by fellow cruisers/boat owners that all live-aboards are people of little means that live a trashy life style on trashy boats.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TCM1968

I went back and the only explanation you give is that Joe Fancy Pants will decide to take his boat elsewhere if said marina has low life live-aboards there. As I have explained there are waiting list at most desirable marinas. And if Joe goes elsewhere there are plenty of boats to take his place. So forgive me I do not agree with your notion that live-aboards are detrimental to any marinas profits.

It's not just the slip price. Though driving Joe Fancy Pants away will tend to drive down slip prices.

Joe Fancy Pants also pays for wax jobs, bottom jobs, engine work, stocking the fridge, etc..., etc..., etc...

Mr Liveaboard is far more likely to just pay for a slip and do almost everything else themselves.

[Jim Cate]

There are plenty of fancy pants guys in the queue, slavering away for a berth in high demand areas. Marina ops can pick and choose those they wish to have as customers.

In those rare areas where t here are empty berths the advantage shifts to t he customer... a highly desirable state!

Jim

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

There are plenty of fancy pants guys in the queue, slavering away for a berth in high demand areas. Marina ops can pick and choose those they wish to have as customers.

In those rare areas where t here are empty berths the advantage shifts to t he customer... a highly desirable state!

Jim

Yep, and this correlates very closely to where liveaboards are or are not limited.

In a half empty marina, it makes sense to put a liveaboard in a slip so you get at least some money out of the slip. In a full marina, it's more popular to Joe Fancy Pants in the slip.

[TCM1968]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's not just the slip price. Though driving Joe Fancy Pants away will tend to drive down slip prices.

Joe Fancy Pants also pays for wax jobs, bottom jobs, engine work, stocking the fridge, etc..., etc..., etc...

Mr Liveaboard is far more likely to just pay for a slip and do almost everything else themselves.

I will concede this is a valid argument if the stereotype of a live-aboard is true. Which brings us full circle back to my main purpose of the OP. Not all and I would venture to guess not even a majority of live-aboards are unemployed poor degenerates. And not all “Fancy Pants” are spending their $ to upkeep those yachts. This is also highly dependent upon location. In areas like California where the cost of living is incredibly high compared to here in Texas your argument may be legitimate.
I would just prefer to people to be judged on their individual merits not grouped into an undeserving stereotype. And I do understand that it will more then likely never happen as it is human nature to make oneself feel better about themselves to put others down especially if they can find others to group up with.
So with that said I surrender and will continue to

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TCM1968

I would just prefer to people to be judged on their individual merits not grouped into an undeserving stereotype. And I do understand that it will more then likely never happen as it is human nature to make oneself feel better about themselves to put others down especially if they can find others to group up with.

It's not about making oneself feel better about themselves. Owners could care less as long as it doesn't hurt profits. If liveaboard were more profitable, you would see them driving out weekenders.

A stereotype is far easier to implement than doing an assessment of each individual and most of the time there's enough truth to it that it's easier to address the occasional outlier and give them an exemption to the rule (ie: my earlier comment about how they forget to check if a cruiser in a well kept boat just happens to stay for a month...and then when he doesn't cause problems and keeps his boat ship shape, it evolves into years).

Keep in mind, doing that assessment takes time and effort (ie: it costs the owner money to have staff do this) and without simple rules, it can be very subjective (ie: people won't like it when you say their boat looks like @%#$).

[TCM1968]

You really are a hard headed individual. I don’t care what marina owners use a policy and or why. If you would like to discuss this please start your own thread. The purpose of this thread was to discuss why the stereotype exists not from a marina owner perspective but from the general communities perspective. The fact that it does exist is why marina owners use it in the manner you describe.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TCM1968

You really are a hard headed individual. I don’t care what marina owners use a policy and or why. If you would like to discuss this please start your own thread. The purpose of this thread was to discuss why the stereotype exists not from a marina owner perspective but from the general communities perspective. The fact that it does exist is why marina owners use it in the manner you describe.

It exists because there is a fair amount of truth to it. Simple as that.

No, not every liveaboard fits the description but an awful lot do based on what I've seen. (Liveaboard as in the boat rarely if ever leaves the slip...as opposed to cruisers).

[Skip JayR]

@TCM1968: it's not all "black" and "white". The boating scene is very colourful.

In the city (in Europe) I stay all year "living-aboard" it's very hpyocratic. - Officially it's not possible to have such status to have a boat as "home". It still needs a land based address to be registered which I have. - The city has 4 harbours: 2 yacht marinas, one central "old" city harbour (which is the most beautiful one) close to the train station, and one side channel harbour (where there are docked some bigger ships (of 25-30 meters) as "floating homes". But as said, its not official. All 4 harbours have their own atmosphere.

In the public area = city harbour it is not possible (= not legally allowed) to have all year living boaters. The formula is simple about this decision: It does not bring enough money in. Its mainly of economical reasons. Keeping boxes blocked for one boat all year, brings in money per month around 200 Euros (for a 30 footer). A 70 Footer costs 300 Euros per month. - While day charter in high season brings in at least 20-40 Euros / day (as the day guests pay for the boat + for the number persons on board.) So better keep a box free during 4-5 months for day rent = in average around 4000 Euros per season plus the spending of the sailing tourists who visit restaurants, museums etc. ...

After winter I moved end of April from the public area to the closed yacht marina, where I disappear within 650 boats. Here its "mass business". Enough boxes for day visitors free 24hx7d. I pay all inclusive, no extra electricity, no extra water: for 6 months (May - Oct) its less than 1,100 Euros. Maximum of daily use of electric power is 400 kWh allowed. (Rec.: Suppose its for the bigger motor yachts who use air conditions.) - I run 24hx7d my computer, charge two mobile phones/tablet, have a heating/cooling fan running (during cold/hot days) so I don't need my Webasto diesel heater (which is very costly at prizes of ~1.50 Euros/Litre). +
I consume maximum 2-300 kWh / month. I still cook with propane gas, which costs me around 30 Euros for filling a 16 kg bottle during 2 months. 50 cents per day for delicious fresh brewed hot coffee and a hot meal in the gas stoven.

Its the old story since decades: Wealthy boat owners who can afford such expensive toys, don't have time, as they have busy jobs to earn money. 60-80% of the boats around me are not being used during week. So my observation. - The owners brought them in end of April, and maybe used it till today 2-3 weeks in total, mostly on weekend. End of September the boats come into the winter storage (out of the water). - So its easy money making for the marina who has 4 full time paid harbour masters. In all city harbours work around 20 harbour masters. During winter they are not being paid, have some other winter jobs. So the harbour administration is not very interested to have lots of "living boaters" still staying, as then they have the duty of daily control of the harbour facilities.

I have a good understanding with my weekend neighbours. So long one is friendly, helpfully, has time for little bit chit-chat, all is fine. Nobody complains. Everybody does his own thing.

Another trend I notice: the boats are only used short time beside other (land based) forms for holidays. E.g. wife doesn't like the boat anymore, so the family has also a camper van to go on holidays. Such boat mainly is used by the husband alone. Kids dont like the family boat anymore. They follow their own interests or use charter boats in different sea areas. - Also a trend in post-industrialized overaged societies: Old people have their physical limitations to deal with sailing boats. We find more and more motor boats being steered by elder couples. Its more easy handling for them to hop from harbour to harbour or cruise along channels without a sail rig.

In a bigger harbour like I am in, we find some "rotten boats", yes. but very rare. No single one by owners who live on. - Some of the lonley dirty ones look disgusting, but its more with the question: "What a beauty, and what a pity. Why happened ? - Why is nobody using it anymore since years ?." - We just had a "cleaning" action by the harbour master. He flagged all boats which are in a total mess with a sticker and having set a deadline: "If the boat is not taken away till 1st July, it is being shreddered and taken away by the city community." It worked well. Old motor boats, trailers, dinghis, rubber boats, rowing boats, surf boards etc. ... all gone since couple of days. A quick clean out. In total maybe 40 boats (out of 650).

For non-sailors in colder areas like Northern Europe mostly it is not being understood, that all-year-living on a boat is possible, even during cold winter times. Maybe thats why we look for "normal people" little bit awkward and suspicious. My experience: non-boaters just don't have an idea about the technologies we can use, that nowadays we can have a "normal" living on our boats, with all the comfort (freezer, TV, heating system, shower, G4 Internet flatrate, washing mashine & dryer in the harbour etc. ...) a land based human is used to in one of the wealthy countries.

We just should not feed by ourselves cliches. We sailors use HighTech and sustainable power sources (like solar, wind energy). Sailing is complexe and it needs lots of steadily learning to handle safely a boat. - Sailors can be very "modern", isn't. :-)