Help 100 Live Aboard Sailors Keep Their Homes By Offering Feedback on Mooring Field

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

shanachie nailed it. If you can’t afford one place go somewhere else. Wyoming has plenty of space too. And SanFran does suffer from overpopulation. It is why the housing has been so much there. Simple supply and demand. Basic economics.

Hey, now you are getting a tad too close of proximity to our Last Best Place when suggesting Wyoming.

Just before the beginning of the Covid era, i.e., BC, the Montana State tourism board chose "Get Lost" to be the logo for the national campaign to attract visitors, albeit stated in a friendly way as in Welcome to Montana, Come Get Lost. When Covid became an issue and social distancing was in vogue, the phrase Get Lost took on a different meaning as in: Get Lost, please don't come to Montana.

The Work From Home scheme induced a lot of people to move to Montana for what was perceived to be comparably affordable property and rent, especially to Bozeman. The cost of homes and rent has escalated dramatically now being well above the national average and having increased in recent years by twice the rate of the national average. We still comparatively have lots of land but not enough homes and apartments, and yeah, our marinas are fully occupied during the season.

Montana has been discovered. It used to be just Lewis and Clark and their ancestors and the real Natives that knew of the beauty. We have a population of a little over 1 million but now have 3 million visitors annually just to Glacier National Park; one has to make reservations on line for individual road passes one year in advance. Almost all visitors arrive in three months, the four seasons being June, July, August and Winter. The must see, spectacular Going to the Sun Road through the national park opens at the end of June and closes a bit after Labor Day, as snow has to plowed to open and then the first significant snow closes it.

I recall being able to just say: "Hey it is a nice day, let's go to Glacier." Those spontaneous days have gone, unless one arrives after 3:30 PM to just travel through.

Similar to the millions visiting Yellowstone which is 96% located in Wyoming, but most enter from Montana.

[Morris Wilson]

Mine! Mine! It's all mine. Anybody below my level can't be here. Where does it end? where the last boat is the governors mega yacht funded by tax payers? (directly or indirectly). Columbus, Cortez and Ponce de Leon come to mind. I know it's not that simple. Just sayin'.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

The "pollution" canard is easily resolved if there is a political will for an obvious solution.

In our moring field, Salem Harbor, there are about 2,800 moorings among about 8 or so towns. The field is served by several towns' pumpout boats. Post Covid they only work Fri-Sun. The pump outs are free, paid by Federal and State grants. If one town's boat is out of service the other towns cover their route. The pump outs are done on demand, no limits per day or week, other than their working ours. The kids running the pumpout boats, on top of their wages, get good tips, usually at least $5 a boat, many times more. Plus, I believe, the hours worked count toward their various marine related licenses, etc. So everyone's happy and the upshot - the harbor is clean enough to swim, fish and whatnot.

Florida does not have to re-invent the wheel, just copy what already works well here.

On The Hook provides free pumpout service in the FL keys in several of the major anchorages Key Largo and south. I've utilized them in numerous places, it seems to work well.

If they expanded that service, and the DNR or what ever the water cops are called simply asked to see your pump out receipt that On The Hook left and fined you when you didn't have one, the pump out problem would be solved.

[sv_isara]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

...High prices and costly insurance are the market's answer to everyone trying to crowd into paradise...

I can only speak for California and the bay, but in my view, government regulations preventing the ability to build housing isn't necessarily "the market".

The market could provide housing for a minor fraction of the cost if allowed. I'm all for paying taxes for some type of civilization - and it's inevitable that we would do so - however everyone has their preference for how much we should pay and for how much services. I believe that that many many thousands we pay (often measured in taxes per month) in the bay in exchange for ever higher prices is the road to hell paved with good intentions.
Everything about it 'feels' good except for the price of everything, and those who have couldn't care less about those who don't. Funny, a wealthy liberal becomes a capitalist the moment it's in their personal interest to become a nimby.
Having dealt closely with a few homeless people, including family members, i am also highly skeptical of anyone who claims to know the 'real reason' behind why there are so many homeless, including the liveaboard type (of which those in question here who have been profiled aren't really; they have jobs and seem integrated with the broader society).

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by sv_isara

I can only speak for California and the bay, but in my view, government regulations preventing the ability to build housing isn't necessarily "the market".

Florida has never had much of a NIMBY problem. In fact, the opposite is true. Developers started rampaging the state in the 1920s and shifted into high gear in the 1960s.


Since I moved here 45 years ago, the state has grown from less than 9 million people to 23 million.



Much of the development now is in hurricane-vulnerable areas because the high ground was claimed long ago. Barrier islands. Former marshland. Low-lying flood zones near rivers.


Orlando is in Orange County, only no oranges are grown there anymore. Only houses. The local bears now wander around the suburbs, wondering what the hell happened to their land.



Civilization in Broward County, which contains Fort Lauderdale, used to extend eight miles from the beach. Now it's 25. All of those new homes are in what used to be the Everglades.



The combination of sunshine, no state income tax and lots of water is alluring to many people -- many more than the state can reliably hold without further destroying its delicate ecosystem.



The many homeless encampments/free anchorages have come about in the last 10 years because there are so many old, battered boats with no way to sensibly junk them.


People living on the edge buy them for little or no money, occupy them for a while, then abandon them when they start sinking, leaving governments to fight over who is responsible.

[Captainmitch]

Well, I went to the linked site , composed an note after filling out the required indentity info and , of course the site bounced it. Told be to "contact the administrator" which, of course is a way to deter you/me from bothering them.
I wonder just how many responses have gone the same way to oblivion.
The guy who is the main proponent (drum beater) is just the character that you would expect to demand what he wrongfully believes to be a subversive group be removed from his view.
Anyway, here is what I attempted to submit



Re: Miami Mooring Field proposal.
After more than 30 years sailing during which I have stopped in the greater Miami area many, many times I do not see the need for an anchoring law to stop the practice in Miami. If the issue is derelict boats, then enforce the laws currently on the books. I think that most of the boating community would support proper enforcement of "anti derelict" boats , but the present trend to eliminate virtually all boaters from anchoring in Miami is doing nothing but creating/furthering a terrible reputation for Miami .

[mvweebles]

I see the OP started a NEW thread with identical information.

Thankfully, he/she gave the email addresses of the Miami board of commissioners. So I wrote them as follows -

I support C7Y amendment to restrict Anchor-Outs

I am a Florida boater and it really ticks me off when anchorages are clogged with derelict boats that are floating dumpster-homes. Granted, I'm on the other side of the state so not in your jurisidiction, but wanted to register my full-throated support of C7.Y My home waters are the ICW around Madeira Beach and St Pete Beach where the town has struggled to deal with long term anchor-outs. I look forward to seeing a useful template that respects homeowners and legitimate boating interests.

Good luck with your efforts

If anyone is similarly inclined, the OP provided the following email addresses:

stevenmeiner@miamibeachfl.gov; KristenRosenGonzalez@miamibeachfl.gov; Laura@miamibeachfl.gov; Alex@miamibeachfl.gov; tanya@miamibeachfl.gov; davidsuarez@miamibeachfl.gov; joe@miamibeachfl.gov

I have to chuckle at the OPs subject asking for help of 100 "Sailors." These folks are no more sailor than I am an astronaut.

[sv_isara]

Thanks for more local knowledge @Shanachie

Originally Posted by Captainmitch

Well, I went to the linked site , composed an note after filling out the required indentity info and , of course the site bounced it. Told be to "contact the administrator" which, of course is a way to deter you/me from bothering them.
I wonder just how many responses have gone the same way to oblivion.
The guy who is the main proponent (drum beater) is just the character that you would expect to demand what he wrongfully believes to be a subversive group be removed from his view.
Anyway, here is what I attempted to submit



Re: Miami Mooring Field proposal.
After more than 30 years sailing during which I have stopped in the greater Miami area many, many times I do not see the need for an anchoring law to stop the practice in Miami. If the issue is derelict boats, then enforce the laws currently on the books. I think that most of the boating community would support proper enforcement of "anti derelict" boats , but the present trend to eliminate virtually all boaters from anchoring in Miami is doing nothing but creating/furthering a terrible reputation for Miami .

What are some of the laws that could be enforced in this case?

[mvweebles]

As I promised the OP, I wrote an email to the Miami Board of Supervisors expressing support of the measures to curb long-term anchor-outs and derelict boats. After watching the news clip the OP posted in the other duplicate thread, I am pretty sure the anchor-outs portray themselves as "cruisers" and therefore representative of boaters in general! I forwarded this thread to let the Supervisors know that legitimate transient cruisers have very little tolerance for boats that serve as stationary floating homes - please do not confuse a true transient cruising boat with the floating dumpsters that clog many anchorages.

I thank the OP for providing the email addresses of the Board of Supervisors, though the effect was unlikely what they hoped.

[CanuckSailorguy]

I have cruised both coasts of Florida quite extensively for the past 20 years, and will tell you quite frankly, you are incorrect. The only part of Florida that resembles your comment is the Keys.
Otherwise, shore access is typically quite easy.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

If you have really cruised FL you would understand that most locations don't have access to the shore unless you stay in a marina. The reason is pretty much 100% due to the anchor out liveaboard boats who have ruined it for all of us.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Biscayne Bay between 79th St bridge and the Rickenbacker Causeway has over 500 boats at anchor. Some of them are 80 - 100 feet in length.
A phone survey I did three weeks ago of all the Biscayne Bay marinas found less than 10 transient slips, and none for long term dockage (over six months). With the exception of Dinner Key, all of the mooring fields and marinas had a wait list of up to and over three years.
Miami Beach could easily purchase a pumpout boat to service the anchored out boats - the state will pay 75% of the cost of one, and up to 75% of the ongoing expenses for two years.
They could institute the propulsion program or the Vessel At Risk program to eliminate derelict boats.
But no. They create a "proposal" that violates state law which has the intent of completely removing ALL boats from the area.
For those of you decrying those living aboard, you need to learn both sides of the story. Most of the people living aboard are employed - over 85% of them in fact, with the rest either retired, or transient cruisers passing through.
Their boats past potty checks regularly, the harbor's water is tested weekly and comes up as among the best sites in Biscayne Bay, and the seagrass was destroyed 80 years ago when the bottom was dug up to create the Venetian Islands.
Get your facts straight friends. These are fellow human beings we're talking about.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I see the OP started a NEW thread with identical information.


I have to chuckle at the OPs subject asking for help of 100 "Sailors." These folks are no more sailor than I am an astronaut.

Funny you say that. Two of them that I know are 100 ton captains and do delivery work. Another, retired, just sailed back from Nicaraugua with another guy who took a work sabbatical to go sailing. Others are back and forth from the Keys, or Bahamas, and several often go out for day sails.
Maybe, before you open your unusually large piehole to criticize people, you might want to learn what you're talking about.

[Love2 boat]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

Maybe, before you open your unusually large piehole to criticize people, you might want to learn what you're talking about.

Love that - so funny... It is usually the people that dont live anywhere near the sh*thole that have the most to say about things that dont concern them. Once you own property or start to travel you start to understand that things dont always appear how you want them to appear.



Go travel to south east asia if you dont like it - I hear it is beautiful...


Best wishes and safe travels...

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by Love2 boat

Love that - so funny... It is usually the people that dont live anywhere near the sh*thole that have the most to say about things that dont concern them. Once you own property or start to travel you start to understand that things dont always appear how you want them to appear.
Go travel to south east asia if you dont like it - I hear it is beautiful...
Best wishes and safe travels...

Southeast Asia is quite beautiful, I've been there several times. Great boating too.
You yourself have NO idea what the situation is in Miami Beach, but you choose to comment. That's your right, but I have NO problem in saying you don't know what you're talking about.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

Funny you say that. Two of them that I know are 100 ton captains and do delivery work. Another, retired, just sailed back from Nicaraugua with another guy who took a work sabbatical to go sailing. Others are back and forth from the Keys, or Bahamas, and several often go out for day sails.
Maybe, before you open your unusually large piehole to criticize people, you might want to learn what you're talking about.

So if the 157 boats are such avid boaters and sailors, why are y'all so pissed about rules requiring you to move a boat a mile every 45 days? 10 years ago Miami Beach built a dinghy dock to attract cruisers. Instead, it attracted livesaboards who can't move their boats and crowded out legitimate cruisers. Don't get pissed when you don't get sympathy from folks who cannot use a very convenient dock because a few folks took advantage and made a nuisance.

I see you're new to CF and have only posted on this topic. Guessing from your handle you're Canadian?