Grey Area - Permanent Address?

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Here is the problem he is facing. NJ now requires you to prove your valid address in addition to proving your ID in order to get a license. He needs one of these forms of proof of his address from the NJ website. I don't believe a PMB will cut it. All states are moving towards this, some more rapidly than others.

Exactly, Kettlewell. We work in NY and will be living aboard in NJ and have no interest in establishing residency in Florida (which I think would qualify as tax evasion or something anyway). So can we just take our slip rental agreement to the DMV to establish our permanent physical address? Will 123 Blank Street, Slip #23 come up in their database? Seems like they'd be a bit dubious since we can't get mail there. And even if we did get a PMB for mail purposes, won't they want a permanent physical address there too? It's sort of a chicken before the egg situation!

Thanks again for all the replies! This is a tough one to figure out.

[Kettlewell]

My advice is to make yourself look like any other schlub showing up for a driver's license. Find a friend or relative with a normal looking street address and use that as your "home" address. I have always used a relative. Choose someone you think won't be moving anytime soon, is reliable enough to forward a few things to you a couple of times per year, and you trust. Only have the things sent there you need to establish it as your "home." Apparently, that could be your bank statements. After you get those you can use them to prove your address to the NJ DMV. I suspect you could use your marine address if you really wanted to, but inevitably you will move to a different slip or a different marina and you will have to change addresses on your official documents, like your license, which is a pain. The world is simply not geared toward round people who don't fit into the square holes they have created. Go with the flow and act like a square peg.

[Svdestiny]

Recently opened a second bank account with Schwab....using a mail service in Miami (which has worked ok for years with other banks, credit cards etc.) and it came up a commercial address. I then used a family member address but they wanted a utility bill in my name, which I couldnt conjure up. Eventually they took an OLD address, at which I no longer live but I guess shows up in their computers ok. But they use my mailing address in Miami, hard to figure.

[Wavewacker]

Why don't you just get a real estate lease and fill in the address and say "unit 24" instead of your slip number? Call the Social Security office and ask for your statement of benefits be mailed to you at that address.

You can also just print off a do-it-yourself lease or ask the marina owner/manager to help you out.

I really doubt that DVM clerks understand the legal verbage in a lease or read every paragraph. They probably look at the heading, the dates, the address and the signatures. When you're done destroy the lease agreement.

Just show them what they want to see.....

[Delancey]

While I appreciate the comments from people who say they have been using mail services for a long time to get around not having a physical address, I would encourage you to check your facts and maybe get your paperwork straightened out.

A quick google search on residency requirements in Florida reveals you are possibly committing fraud against the the state of Florida as well as the state you actually live in but don't pay taxes to.

Florida seems to be very clear in requiring residents to be physically in Florida for at least six months of the year. Oh, and by the way, to obtain a drivers license in the state of Florida you need to provide a lease or mortgage for, wait, you guessed it, a residential address!

If you have a valid drivers license based on a place you used to live, the state typically requires by law notification of a change of address with a certain time period. So if your address on your license is old, and not actually where you live, your license is no longer valid.

I would be concerned about getting into a car crash with a rental car and being found to not actually having a valid drivers license. At that point I'm pretty sure the Insurance Companies Lawyers have their out and I am left holding the bag because I lied to them, and in turn broke the law. Drivers Licenses are a privilege granted by the state and not a right, along with that privilege comes responsibilities.

This is the type of thing I am hoping to avoid by NOT lying to the man just so I can live on a boat. Again, has anyone taken a "Dockage Agreement" to a DMV and had them accept this as proof of residency?

[Svdestiny]

Well I don't Have a license and I'm not lying to anyone.(had it pickpocketed in costs rica and never renewed it) I tell the truth to the "man" and usually they helpfigure out how to accomplish the task in hand. Sometimes I'm in a marina, sometimes I'm at anchor, sometimes I'm traveling, both in and out of the country. It can be tricky.

My husband just got a license in Florida...we were at a marina at that time. The DMV has a long list of different documents you could use, they were very accommodating, didn't need to lie.

Oh and the schwab bank people I referenced were helpful too. I told them the truth, they helped figure out what would work in their system.

[Delancey]

I took this from the Florida DMV website, if your marina is listed as a residential address looks like it's not a problem-

Residential Address (not post office box)
Bring two:

Deed, mortgage, payment booklet, or rental agreement.
Florida vehicle registration or title
Utility bill or hookup/work order
Statement from person you live with along with two address documents in that person's name.

[svpattyd]

We took our boat slip docs to the local post office. We got a po box. We used the po street address with apt/suite ##. The po worker said that was the way to establish a ' real' address. It worked for DMV, Passport, bank acct, insurance and all other documents.

[Delancey]

Patty- thanks for your reply, I take it you are located in Maryland? It's encouraging to hear someone used a slip rental agreement in lieu of a residential lease or mortgage, in my mind at least they are the same thing.

I am just not optimistic about my ability to convince a bureaucrat of the same thing and am afraid I may have a bit of an uphill battle ahead of me.

[LauderBoy]

Originally Posted by Delancy

A quick google search on residency requirements in Florida reveals you are possibly committing fraud against the the state of Florida as well as the state you actually live in but don't pay taxes to.

Yeah, since Florida doesn't have a state income tax I wouldn't at all doubt that red flags can be raised if you're not really living in the state.

But using a marina address has its own problems. It's hard to mail forward from them when you move on, moving around a lot will trash your credit rating, and you have to constantly update everyone with the new address. And when you're not in a marina, what then? Where does your mail go?

[Wavewacker]

Okay, does anyone want to define "residence"? What does the IRS consider a residence? What does HUD consider a residence?

Any structure suitable for habitation having sleeping, kitchen and bathroom facilities will pass the test. HUD uses the term in the recent SAFE Act to include vacant property intended for residential use or zonned residential.

Another point or side note, in some states the listing for the sale by any agent of a marina must hold a valid real estate license unless they are an attorney.

So, IMO, my suggestion of showing some clerk what they think they want to see is not fraudulent. By using the definitions used by the federal government you yacht certaily meets the standards of a residence.

And I mentioned taxes some time ago in another thread. 6 months is pretty uniform throughout the country. You can also have dual residency being 6 months in one place and 6 months somewhere else. Generally you select your "tax residence" and pay taxes as appropriate at your residences according to that taxable property kept in that location.

If you own properties in three different states for example you could stay at each place 4 months of the year. You select your tax home. Income taxes may be due according to where the income was earned if you were in a state for more than 6 months and taxes paid in your tax home state is deductable from that tax liability, see your tax`advisor.

In many counties, personal property on Jan 1 (could be Dec 31 as well) tax can be due to that county regardless of your tax home. If I keep my boat and lawn tractor at my vacation home on the closing date personal property tax is due that county.

I doubt too if any state is going to be unreasonable in attempting to assess you as a resident of that state if you are paying taxes in another state at your registered tax home. Consider those that work along a state border or in border towns where the state line goes through the town. A resident could easily spend more time in another state than the state their home is sitting in. Blue Eye Mo/Ar comes to mind where most of the town of about 100 is on the Mo. side with a residence 50' away in Ar. I'm familiar with the town and many folks there and I assure you that the Ar folks don't pay Mo taxes which has the 6 month residency requirement and the state tax authority doesn't run through town timing people as to where they are all day. While this is really splitting hairs, an argument could be made for a cruiser that actually cruises.

As to the driver's license being invalid due to residency,IMO that would be very difficult to prove sence that is not a requirement of the issuing state and a valid license in any state (the state issued) is thereforre valid in any other state. Perhaps you should have one in the new state according to that state law, but to say in causes your existing license to become invalid I think would be a stretch.

Your auto insurance is based on where the vehicle is garaged or kept most of the time, but all the insurance company can do is to charge you any difference that should have been charged as opposed to what was actually paid, if they policy was not rated properly.

And back to the lease I mentioned above; The title can simply be "Residential Occupancy Lease" the parties can be the Lessee and Lessor, "Landlord" never has to be mentioned! You can refer to a slip as an amenity to the property to be leased and say : hereinafter to be known as "Amenity #24". You could also say that "this`agreement shall be subject to and governed by that cretain rental agreement made by and between the parties hereto, dated xx July, xxxx" and continue to subordinate one agreement to the prior agreement. I guess you could also just use the marnia lease and put Occpancy Agreement above the title just as well.

I also think that if you just sat down with the manager in the DMV office and go through this stuff they would see the light and take your money.

[ReMetau]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Oh, and by the way, to obtain a drivers license in the state of Florida you need to provide a lease or mortgage for, wait, you guessed it, a residential address!
?

We lived on a mooring in Marathon for year and did not have a physical address. I went to the DMV and they allowed me to use my boat document number (boat is documented and registered in Florida) as my address. Now on my driver's license it shows DO692063 with my hull number as my address. I use St. Brendans as my mailing address.

[Delancey]

Wavewacker- thanks for your informed and encouraging response. In essence I see no difference between a dockage agreement and residential lease albeit the obvious. In the end there is no doubt they want their money and will be happy to receive it.

As mentioned before I got vague answers when I talked to a couple different marinas, hence my concern, but it can be that big of a deal since there are hundreds of liveaboards in the area. I just don't know any of them to talk to and find out how they dealt with it.

Sounds like I'll be spending some time standing in line at the DMV to get my answers!

[svpattyd]

@ Delancy Yes we run Maryland. I love having Maryland as my state of residence. I was turned down for health ins (united health care) and Maryland has a state ins set up thru ACA, so I got health ins thru Maryland at a very affordable price. When we travel, I have my mail held until we arrive at a marina/ town for a week or do and have it forwarded. I feel that paying state taxes is my way of contributing for things I use, like roads, marinas, parks, etc.

[svpattyd]

Originally Posted by svpattyd

@ Delancy Yes we run Maryland. I love having Maryland as my state of residence. I was turned down for health ins (united health care) and Maryland has a state ins set up thru ACA, so I got health ins thru Maryland at a very affordable price. When we travel, I have my mail held until we arrive at a marina/ town for a week or do and have it forwarded. I feel that paying state taxes is my way of contributing for things I use, like roads, marinas, parks, etc.

We dont run MD, we r in MD, damn predictive text feature.