For those who are cheering on the City of Miami Beach

[CanuckSailorguy]

If you think that Miami Beach's attempts to move out the local liveboards won't affect you when you go there - think again. Some of you got really holier than thou on another thread without actually knowing what is going on there.

Here's what will happen the next time you visit Miami Beach and want to go ashore:

All dingy access without a valid Dinghy and Tender Dockage Agreement will have a $50 drop off and pick up fee moving forward enforced by dock master. Daily users without a valid Dinghy and Tender Dockage Agreement must register with the dockmaster on a form to be approved by the City and must give at least 24 hours’ notice prior to any daily dockage. Dinghy must be State registered and insured. Owners of all dinghies and/or tenders associated with a larger vessel anchored offshore must comply with all Material Terms below in order to utilize daily dinghy docking. Dinghy owner must check-in with dockmaster for each individual dockage and the dockmaster shall verify compliance with these terms before allowing daily dockage.

Sound like anyplace you want to visit, with those conditions?
And what are the conditions? I'm SO glad you asked that. Keep in mind, several of these "conditions" violate Florida state law.

"13. Main associated vessel with dinghy/tender must remain 1000 ft from shore while anchored at all times."
That means you will need to anchor in Miami, over a mile away, since at 1000 feet, the water is too shallow for cruising boats.
17. Major repairs and refitting of vessels or associated equipment in Biscayne Bay or any waterway is prohibited.
Good luck if you have to stop for a repair issue here. Can't use the dinghy dock. No place else to go ashore either.
19. Fueling of on dinghy/tender and associated larger vessel in Biscayne Bay or on any waterway is prohibited.
Hopefully you have an electric dinghy motor, since you cannot fuel it up in Miami Beach.
27. As part of the Dinghy and Tender Dockage Agreement, signatories must grant consent such that in the event of an emergency, the City has the authority to have necessary repairs made to the dinghy/tender and associated larger vessel. Emergencies include, but are not limited to, tropical storms and hurricanes; breakdown of a bilge, fuel, or sewage pump or any other leak; chafed or broken lines, or any other emergency that may imperil the vessel and possibly lead to sinking, damage to other vessels on the water, or damage to Biscayne Bay. The cost of these repairs, parts, labor or any other appropriate charges, will be billed to the vessel’s owner and must be payable within 24 hours of the owner’s return or as provided by the City.
You good with giving local authorities the right to board your vessel?
11. No dogs shall be left unattended on any vessel.
7. Bottom of dinghy/tender and associated larger vessel must be cleaned of growth once a month.
2. Maximum two (2) adults and unlimited children are permitted on dinghy/tender.
You'll just have to leave your friends on board I guess.

Miami Beach home association presidents have said, in my hearing, that they want ALL the anchored boats gone from Miami Beach. Not some, not the derelicts, ALL of them.
So for those of you who were bitching about liveaboards being the problem, in Miami Beach, BOATS are the problem.
THAT is why you were asked to support the boaters in Miami Beach. To keep Miami Beach from totally shutting down the anchorage that YOU want to use when you come to visit.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

...Sound like anyplace you want to visit, with those conditions?...

...Miami Beach home association presidents have said, in my hearing, that they want ALL the anchored boats gone from Miami Beach. Not some, not the derelicts, ALL of them...

First, no, it's nothing like any place I'd ever want to visit. But that's a personal preference.

I agree it's a gross over-reach. It does seem that all boats have become unwelcome there. That is a shame.

I do wonder, however, why.

Could it be that a minority of "boaters" have given the rest of them a bad reputation? That these onerous rules are in response to some very specific problems the residents have had? I can only speculate, but it seems possible.

I certainly don't support or condone such drastic measures. But I've seen the problems that the shoreside residents are grappling with first-hand, and understand their desire to do something about them.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

First, no, it's nothing like any place I'd ever want to visit. But that's a personal preference.
I agree it's a gross over-reach. It does seem that all boats have become unwelcome there. That is a shame.
I do wonder, however, why.
Could it be that a minority of "boaters" have given the rest of them a bad reputation? That these onerous rules are in response to some very specific problems the residents have had? I can only speculate, but it seems possible.
I certainly don't support or condone such drastic measures. But I've seen the problems that the shoreside residents are grappling with first-hand, and understand their desire to do something about them.

Tom, thank you for a considered, thoughtful reply. Yes, there are a few problem boats. The locals are working with the police to weed them out. NO liveaboard community wants that sort of boat in their midst because of the problems they create. Out of 157 boats, 7 are considered legally derelict and scheduled for removal. Another 11 are tagged "at risk" and if not corrected, will end up being removed.
One of the issues is that when Miami shut down the Watsons Island anchorage, some of them moved over to Miami Beach and started the same ******** that got them moved out of Watsons - public drunkenness, public sex (I'm not kidding), sleeping on shore instead of in their boat, general loitering in a fairly exclusive area.
However, these are all issues that can be dealt with by proper landside police enforcement, and again, the boaters are working to get these types out of the anchorage. In fact, all but a couple are gone now.
However, one commissioner has made it his goal to remove all the boaters and refuses to listen to anyone.

[wholybee]

I think part of the reason for that response is that "Liveaboard" does not equal "Cruising." They are two groups, with two lifestyles. The share a space, and of course both live on boats. And sometimes a person might transition from one group to the other. But they are still quite different.

Most of those rules are workable for typical cruisers. A few on the (very)expensive side, but if stopping in Miami Beach for a weekend could be adhered to if a cruiser really wanted to go there. They are devastating to a liveaboard there. And I think that is the goal of the local government.

The thing is, anything else aside, I as a cruiser would not want to spend time anchored with 157 boats - anywhere. The liveaboard community, as much as any regulation would, keep me from ever considering stopping there. And as strict as those regulations are, they aren't going to affect anyone not planning on stopping there. So, cruisers aren't so often going to jump up to defend the liveaboards. Maybe we should, and some do.

Quite honestly, if Miami beach were a city I wanted to visit, only changing the pickup/dropoff fee to $10 day, and changing the persons limit to that on the dingy safety plate, and I would be 100% fine with everything else.

What does a dinghy tender and dockage agreement cost? Presumably this is a monthly fee charged to anchor outs disguised as a dinghy fee, and presumably used to maintain docks, enforce rules, and encourage anchor outs to move on? If a weekend or week long agreement can be obtained at reasonable cost by a cruiser, all of those rules become pretty manageable to someone only staying a short time.

[Shanachie]

Sorry. Removing all of the liveaboard boats would be a good thing. This is not an anchorage most cruisers end up in. There are others in the Miami area that can handle the sailors wanting shelter for a night or two.


I don't regard people who never move their boats as sailors. Whether you're in a marina or at anchor, you are just looking for an inexpensive way to live on the water. And trashing the environment to do it.


You're also infringing on the rights of people who spent lots of money to buy waterfront homes, only to find squatters anchored off their property who impose their low-down lifestyle on them.



In my city marina in St. Petersburg, many liveaboard boats are a disgrace. Filthy decks, barnacle-encrusted bottoms, pot smoke hanging in the air at all hours, junk sitting around at the docks.


Ultimately, it's up to the people in charge to say that marinas and anchorages should cater only to real sailors. I'm anxiously awaiting that day,

[wholybee]

Also, the waterway is a public space. It is the job of the government to protect that space and make it available for the enjoyment of everyone. When 157 boats, I don't care if they are derelict or not, just stay there and never move, they are infringing on the rights of anyone else that wants to use that space.

Consider a national park. Anyone can pay a fee and visit for a day or camp for a week. But if a few hundred people decide to stay in their tent permanently, then no one else can enjoy that space for the few days they would like to camp. It is very much exactly the same thing.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Could it be that a minority of "boaters" have given the rest of them a bad reputation? That these onerous rules are in response to some very specific problems the residents have had? I can only speculate, but it seems possible..

That's exactly what's happened. What irks me is that these derelict boats are looking to associate themselves with actual boaters and then get pissed when someone says they actually have their boat every month or two.

I see CanuckSailingGuy just joined and has done so to only rail on this topic. I'm guessing he's one of the folks whos boat can't or won't move.

[CanuckSailorguy]

The dinghy agreement is $750 per month for access to the dinghy dock, and a porta potty. That's it.
And you STILL have to anchor the big boat more than 1000 feet from shore. That's both illegal under FL §327.60(2)(f) and it puts you more than a mile away from the dinghy dock, as there is no water deep enough at that point to anchor. You actually have to move into Miami or Key Biscayne's jurisdiction to find anchorage to honor the 1000 foot rule.
Local mooring fields charge from $220 - $400 per month for dinghy dock, mooring, bathrooms, shuttles, captain's lounge, etc.
The city's goal is to drive the anchored boats away, even though they are working on building a mooring field, to be open in March 2026, which will sit precisely where the boats are anchored now. The good thing about a mooring field is that it will force the city to behave and accept the boats.

Originally Posted by wholybee

I think part of the reason for that response is that "Liveaboard" does not equal "Cruising." They are two groups, with two lifestyles. The share a space, and of course both live on boats. And sometimes a person might transition from one group to the other. But they are still quite different.

Most of those rules are workable for typical cruisers. A few on the (very)expensive side, but if stopping in Miami Beach for a weekend could be adhered to if a cruiser really wanted to go there. They are devastating to a liveaboard there. And I think that is the goal of the local government.

The thing is, anything else aside, I as a cruiser would not want to spend time anchored with 157 boats - anywhere. The liveaboard community, as much as any regulation would, keep me from ever considering stopping there. And as strict as those regulations are, they aren't going to affect anyone not planning on stopping there. So, cruisers aren't so often going to jump up to defend the liveaboards. Maybe we should, and some do.

Quite honestly, if Miami beach were a city I wanted to visit, only changing the pickup/dropoff fee to $10 day, and changing the persons limit to that on the dingy safety plate, and I would be 100% fine with everything else.

What does a dinghy tender and dockage agreement cost? Presumably this is a monthly fee charged to anchor outs disguised as a dinghy fee, and presumably used to maintain docks, enforce rules, and encourage anchor outs to move on? If a weekend or week long agreement can be obtained at reasonable cost by a cruiser, all of those rules become pretty manageable to someone only staying a short time.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

The city's goal is to drive the anchored boats away, even though they are working on building a mooring field, to be open in March 2026, which will sit precisely where the boats are anchored now. The good thing about a mooring field is that it will force the city to behave and accept the boats.

We're in agreement - Sounds like a win-win to me.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

That's exactly what's happened. What irks me is that these derelict boats are looking to associate themselves with actual boaters and then get pissed when someone says they actually have their boat every month or two.
I see CanuckSailingGuy just joined and has done so to only rail on this topic. I'm guessing he's one of the folks whos boat can't or won't move.

I have been a member here off and on since about 2011, and frankly, the sanctimonious attitude of people such as yourself is the reason I don't spend time here. I cannot stand mouthy no nothings like you.
You've not been to Miami Beach recently, you have NO idea what boats are in that anchorage or their condition, or who their owners are and what they do, but you insist on yapping away here as if you know something. Trust me, you don't know squat.
For the record, I'm a full time cruiser with almost 50 trips on the ICW, plus 15 seasons in the Bahamas, 7 in Cuba. I've been a charter and delivery captain, and I conduct boating seminars at a variety of boat shows. I've also spent a couple of winters in Tampa Bay, usually at the Tampa Bay Sailing Squadron.
The local marine patrol has gone through the fleet and, of 157 boats, tagged 7 as derelict and facing removal, and 11 as at risk vessels which will be removed if the condition leading to the designation is not corrected.
Most of those boats were moved over from Watson's Island when the city of Miami shut that anchorage down. They were not a part of the group in Miami Beach.
So as I said, you know nothing, and you aren't smart enough to keep your yap shut so it doesn't show.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

We're in agreement - Sounds like a win-win to me.

I am not a fan of mooring fields. I have a lot of money invested in iron and electronics on the bow of my boat and I like to use it.
However, for Miami Beach, given the attitude of the shoreside locals who believe they own the view to the horizon, it's the best and only workable answer.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Also, the waterway is a public space. It is the job of the government to protect that space and make it available for the enjoyment of everyone. When 157 boats, I don't care if they are derelict or not, just stay there and never move, they are infringing on the rights of anyone else that wants to use that space.

Consider a national park. Anyone can pay a fee and visit for a day or camp for a week. But if a few hundred people decide to stay in their tent permanently, then no one else can enjoy that space for the few days they would like to camp. It is very much exactly the same thing.

Maritime law disagrees with you, and anchoring is a right in navigation. Sorry.
I do get your point, but otoh - there are 500 boats between 79th St. Bridge and Rickenbacker Causeway. A couple of them are in the 100 foot range, very large motor yachts.
There were, as of three weeks ago, less than 10 transient slips in all of Biscayne Bay, and zero long term slips.
So you tell me, what are these boaters supposed to do?

[CanuckSailorguy]

Lord, where to start with this one?
Ok, first of all - your property rights END at your property line. Homeowners don't get to own the view to the horizon. Sorry.
And this is Miami Beach, not Miami. Furthermore, I often stayed here on my way south, until I discovered No Name Harbor, where I am now. It's a lovely anchorage, close to shopping and an interesting downtown if that thrills you.
And tell me, just WHAT is wrong with finding an inexpensive way to live? Is there some rule I missed about a mandatory amount I must spend to meet with your approval?
**** that noise. Some people enjoy living on their boats, as I do, and I can most certainly afford to move ashore if I want. But I don't. I like the freedom to go where I wish, when I wish, I like waking up to dolphins around my boat. I love the cruising community. No land home offers any of that. And I don't have to shovel snow six months of the year as I once did.
I get your point about shoddy looking boats and I agree. We who live on the water have an obligation to keep the boat tidy, keep it looking good. But people who don't want to see boats shouldn't live on the water. Or, they should buy curtains.
btw - low down lifestyle? I had a nice wine, steak and salad for supper tonight onboard. Hardly low down, well, unless you're some kind of elitist.
I've heard of the problems at your marina. That's on management to deal with. And if they can't, the city should hire better people. Why do you put up with it?
I've stayed at your marina 20 some years ago, I took my initial sail training there, and it was lovely. I'm sorry to see it's gone downhill. But since you pay to be there, maybe you should be bitching at them, and let the people of Miami Beach resolve their issues without your advice.

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Sorry. Removing all of the liveaboard boats would be a good thing. This is not an anchorage most cruisers end up in. There are others in the Miami area that can handle the sailors wanting shelter for a night or two.


I don't regard people who never move their boats as sailors. Whether you're in a marina or at anchor, you are just looking for an inexpensive way to live on the water. And trashing the environment to do it.


You're also infringing on the rights of people who spent lots of money to buy waterfront homes, only to find squatters anchored off their property who impose their low-down lifestyle on them.



In my city marina in St. Petersburg, many liveaboard boats are a disgrace. Filthy decks, barnacle-encrusted bottoms, pot smoke hanging in the air at all hours, junk sitting around at the docks.


Ultimately, it's up to the people in charge to say that marinas and anchorages should cater only to real sailors. I'm anxiously awaiting that day,

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

I have been a member here off and on since about 2011, and frankly, the sanctimonious attitude of people such as yourself is the reason I don't spend time here. I cannot stand mouthy no nothings like you.
You've not been to Miami Beach recently, you have NO idea what boats are in that anchorage or their condition, or who their owners are and what they do, but you insist on yapping away here as if you know something. Trust me, you don't know squat.
For the record, I'm a full time cruiser with almost 50 trips on the ICW, plus 15 seasons in the Bahamas, 7 in Cuba. I've been a charter and delivery captain, and I conduct boating seminars at a variety of boat shows. I've also spent a couple of winters in Tampa Bay, usually at the Tampa Bay Sailing Squadron.
The local marine patrol has gone through the fleet and, of 157 boats, tagged 7 as derelict and facing removal, and 11 as at risk vessels which will be removed if the condition leading to the designation is not corrected.
Most of those boats were moved over from Watson's Island when the city of Miami shut that anchorage down. They were not a part of the group in Miami Beach.
So as I said, you know nothing, and you aren't smart enough to keep your yap shut so it doesn't show.

Lemme guess - you're Wally Moran, malcontent Canadian and self proclaimed writer extraordinare!

https://bloggingtheicw.blogspot.com/...being.html?m=1

Look, all I'm saying is long term anchor outs are a using public resources. You came to a forum with people from all over the world. If you only want opinions from people from Miami Beach. Well you came to the wrong place. Truth is, you came here seeking sympathy and received none.

If anyone needs to get their facts straight, it's you. You've cherry picked and spun this in the most contorted way. If y'all are such world cruisers, they you would have never become a nuisance in the first place.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you're a world cruiser. On the other, you can't find a place to leave your boat full time so want to anchor in a public waterway for as long as you please.

Maybe not all of the 157 are squatters. Perhaps you're not one of the squatters and if you're not, get pissed at them for upsetting the apple cart. This tension is nothing new and exists all over the country. Most sailors try to blend and fly under the radar. Why you chose otherwise is beyond me.

If your boat has sails, use them. If you think you have a legal right to anchor wherever you want, get a lawyer. But please don't conflate long term anchor outs with active cruisers. It's insulting.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

Maritime law disagrees with you, and anchoring is a right in navigation. Sorry.
I do get your point, but otoh - there are 500 boats between 79th St. Bridge and Rickenbacker Causeway. A couple of them are in the 100 foot range, very large motor yachts.
There were, as of three weeks ago, less than 10 transient slips in all of Biscayne Bay, and zero long term slips.
So you tell me, what are these boaters supposed to do?

Can you cite case law for that? Because the anchor outs in Sausalito keep losing that fight in court, and the courts have given the city authority to regulate and evict everyone. And they are doing that, not with rules and making it expensive like Miami Beach is doing, but by seizing boats when the owners are ashore and towing them straight to the crusher. And that anchorage is a "Special Anchorage" defined in CFR.

It isn't my job to tell the liveaboards what they are supposed to do. I can empathize with their becoming homeless, but that doesn't make me responsible for their actions.