For those who are cheering on the City of Miami Beach

[CanuckSailorguy]

For starters, I didn't come here seeking sympathy. I came here to get the facts straight, since so many like you, self proclaimed experts who actually haven't the faintest idea of what is going on, feel the need to spout off and get things wrong.
I have not cherry picked anything, and if I had, since you're not in Miami Beach, you'd not know anyhow. But I do assure you, there is no cherry picking going on.
I am not talking out of both sides of my mouth, and this issue doesn't affect me directly since I'm not anchored there. So again, you speak without thinking.
And I don't conflate long term anchor outs with cruisers. Nor did I say that, so please, don't tell me what I said. I get paid to write professionally, and what I say is what I mean - neither more nor less (and let's see if you're educated enough to know where that paraphrase comes from?).
If you have issues with reading comprehension, you can get help. But don't tell me what I did or didn't say.
Now, back to your inanities. Not all 157 are squatters. There are about 50 or so boats with people aboard. Most of them work in town, one is a full time mother of a disabled daughter whose husband works full time, and there are a couple of retirees.
What few "squatters" there were have pretty much been eliminated as the police cracked down - partly at the request of the liveaboards - on the AirBnB and the cheap monthly rentals.
As for needing a lawyer, not necessary. Florida §327.60 does all the talking I need.
Oh yes. The boat has sails, new ones, and a new motor. And it goes places, something you don't seem to do.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Lemme guess - you're Wally Moran, malcontent Canadian and self proclaimed writer extraordinare!

https://bloggingtheicw.blogspot.com/...being.html?m=1

Look, all I'm saying is long term anchor outs are a using public resources. You came to a forum with people from all over the world. If you only want opinions from people from Miami Beach. Well you came to the wrong place. Truth is, you came here seeking sympathy and received none.

If anyone needs to get their facts straight, it's you. You've cherry picked and spun this in the most contorted way. If y'all are such world cruisers, they you would have never become a nuisance in the first place.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you're a world cruiser. On the other, you can't find a place to leave your boat full time so want to anchor in a public waterway for as long as you please.

Maybe not all of the 157 are squatters. Perhaps you're not one of the squatters and if you're not, get pissed at them for upsetting the apple cart. This tension is nothing new and exists all over the country. Most sailors try to blend and fly under the radar. Why you chose otherwise is beyond me.

If your boat has sails, use them. If you think you have a legal right to anchor wherever you want, get a lawyer. But please don't conflate long term anchor outs with active cruisers. It's insulting.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

For starters, I didn't come here seeking sympathy. I came here to get the facts straight, since so many like you, self proclaimed experts who actually haven't the faintest idea of what is going on, feel the need to spout off and get things wrong.
I have not cherry picked anything, and if I had, since you're not in Miami Beach, you'd not know anyhow. But I do assure you, there is no cherry picking going on.
I am not talking out of both sides of my mouth, and this issue doesn't affect me directly since I'm not anchored there. So again, you speak without thinking.
And I don't conflate long term anchor outs with cruisers. Nor did I say that, so please, don't tell me what I said. I get paid to write professionally, and what I say is what I mean - neither more nor less (and let's see if you're educated enough to know where that paraphrase comes from?).
If you have issues with reading comprehension, you can get help. But don't tell me what I did or didn't say.
Now, back to your inanities. Not all 157 are squatters. There are about 50 or so boats with people aboard. Most of them work in town, one is a full time mother of a disabled daughter whose husband works full time, and there are a couple of retirees.
What few "squatters" there were have pretty much been eliminated as the police cracked down - partly at the request of the liveaboards - on the AirBnB and the cheap monthly rentals.
As for needing a lawyer, not necessary. Florida §327.60 does all the talking I need.
Oh yes. The boat has sails, new ones, and a new motor. And it goes places, something you don't seem to do.

So why come to a forum with global reach if anyone who isn't in Miami Beach is wrong?

Best I can tell, sailors are insulted by the constant harangue by folks like yourself that people who live on their boat in public waterways are somehow active cruisers and responsible boaters. That dog won't hunt.

And let's be honest. Anyone who has stories about disabled children is looking for sympathy. Im sorry for their plight, I really am. But that doesn't mean they have the right to be a nuisance. Besides, I thought they were active cruisers?

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

And I don't conflate long term anchor outs with cruisers. Nor did I say that, so please, don't tell me what I said.

Did anyone say you conflate anchor outs with cruisers? I did not, but you here are proving what I said to be true. Cruisers and Anchor outs are very different. The two groups often don't agree. You do seem to be struggling to understand that, by continuing to plea your case to a group that doesn't agree with you.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Did anyone say you conflate anchor outs with cruisers?.

I said he conflated the two. Largely due to the reference off his blog post to a Facebook group called "Cruisers Rights Network" that clearly plays on the romance of cruising sailboats to curry favor for long-term anchor out and derelict boats.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

So why come to a forum with global reach if anyone who isn't in Miami Beach is wrong?

Best I can tell, sailors are insulted by the constant harangue by folks like yourself that people who live on their boat in public waterways are somehow active cruisers and responsible boaters. That dog won't hunt.

And let's be honest. Anyone who has stories about disabled children is looking for sympathy. Im sorry for their plight, I really am. But that doesn't mean they have the right to be a nuisance. Besides, I thought they were active cruisers?

If you actually knew anything about cruising, you'd recognize that there is a great variety of people who cruise. Sometimes they stop cruising for a while - to earn money, because they like someplace, for health reasons, one guy I know stopped cruising for three years to woo someone he fell in love with.
Now again - I did NOT say - "people who live on their boat in public waterways are somehow active cruisers"
You have a bad habit of misinterpreting what is said. It's dishonest and deceitful - or maybe you're just plain stupid, I can't tell, but I know which way I'm leaning.

[CanuckSailorguy]

Yea, weebles said it. Try keeping up.

Originally Posted by wholybee

Did anyone say you conflate anchor outs with cruisers? I did not, but you here are proving what I said to be true. Cruisers and Anchor outs are very different. The two groups often don't agree. You do seem to be struggling to understand that, by continuing to plea your case to a group that doesn't agree with you.

[SailingHarmonie]

Of course this whole problem could actually be cleaned up with the rigorous enforcement of one rule that has been on the books for decades

Do you have a holding tank? Do you use it? Can you prove it works? Is the discharge seacock locked closed? Where did you last empty it?

Everybody know the boats we are talking about can not provide legal answers to all of those questions. Why should they get a pass on rules I expect to obey and be enforced on me?

It is not unusual in other jurisdictions that boats are subject to random boarding and dye tests. First violation: large fine. Second: really large fine. Third: boat is impounded.

Problem solved.

[ekelly36]

From an outsider / lurker who has not been to the area and as someone who is spending thousands of dollars to make sure my boat is in great condition, I also side with the other folks here, no one should have the right to just leave their boat anchored for weeks/months while not attending to the boat..... Folks that live aboard because they like it or for whatever reason shouldnt have any problems making sure their boat is tidy and up to par.... if it cant sail or move then it should be on the dry so they can fix it.....For the most part thats what ive been reading on how all this started..... How crappy is it for people who want to come visit the area to have no place to anchor or dock because of the majority that just want to leave their boats out unattended.... Anchoring shouldnt be just a cheap way to store your boat.... if you know you dont have the money to properly maintain the boat then you should sell it..... instead people just leave the boats out taking up space where other folks would like to anchor for the night or visit for a couple days.... NOW this is just me but... if I was going somewhere and knew I was leaving the area for weeks or months I would just find a place to haul the boat out to put it on a cradle..... there's always room somewhere even if its not exactly where its convenient.

[GordMay]

I think that the primary concern, with [these] live-aboards, is that they represent a homeless encampment, on public [submerged] lands - analogous to homeless camps ashore, under bridges, and in parks, and other civic spaces.

Different communities utilize different strategies to deal with the competing interests[s] of homelessness, and use of public properties/resources.

Canadian Courts have tried to strike a balance, between the competing interests over the use of public parks, by protecting the right to erect shelters overnight, but in a limited manner.

In striking this balance, Cdn. courts have held that bylaws imposing a blanket prohibition on tents are unconstitutional, in circumstances where the municipality has a lack of adequate, accessible shelter space, to house the number of homeless people in its community.

For example, Abbotsford, British Columbia, allows camping in parks, from 7:00 pm to 9:00 am “where there is no accessible shelter accommodation available in the City”. Sleeping overnight or camping is still banned in certain “community-wide parks” where many functions are held. The bylaw also lists types of places where a temporary shelter is not allowed, such as playgrounds, sports fields, cemeteries, pathways or washroom facilities.

Similarly, Victoria’s [B.C.] bylaws allow a “homeless person” to secure “a tent, lean-to, or other form of overhead shelter constructed from a tarpaulin, plastic, cardboard or other rigid or non-rigid material” within a park boundary between 7:00 pm and 7:00 am, except for certain restricted areas within the park (including a playground, sports field, footpath, a road within a park, environmentally sensitive area, or designated event or activity area).

Halifax, Nova Scotia, first began designating encampment locations, where people could tent, in the summer of 2022, in response to a growing population of unhoused people.
Last month, Halifax decided to de-designate five of its 11 sites, saying “better options now exist.”
The former residents are now living in emergency shelters, the recently opened Pallet shelter community in Lower Sackville, temporary housing, or other designated encampment sites.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

...However, these are all issues that can be dealt with by proper landside police enforcement, and again, the boaters are working to get these types out of the anchorage. In fact, all but a couple are gone now.

However, one commissioner has made it his goal to remove all the boaters and refuses to listen to anyone.

I can certainly see both sides of this issue. And I agree the proposal is an over-reaction which sets a dangerous precedent for both groups - cruisers and stationary live-aboards.

This is a classic "Tragedy of the Commons" problem, right out of Economics 101.

There is a limited resource, the anchorage. By law, it's owned by the federal government to be managed by the state in the public interest of all citizens. States usually delegate some of this management to the municipalities.

Environmental concerns, aesthetics, vessel condition, crude behavior, they're all red herrings. The real issue is there are more people who want to use that shared resource - the "commons" - than it can support.

Unfortunately for cruisers and live-aboards alike, one solution to the Tragedy of the Commons dilemma is to put a price on it. A mooring field is one way to do that. Personally, I hate the idea. Giving any government body a revenue stream is a one-way street. They'll milk that for every penny they can get, in perpetuity.

To me, the better solution is a simple time limit. If anchoring is inherent in the right of navigation, then simply define the distinction between navigating and squatting. Obviously that's not what some want, either.

[boatman61]

Some anchor outs who anchored in Ferragudo off Praia Grande and flew home.. the tally is now four after an 11 metre sailboat dragged and beached over the weekend.
To cheap to use the marina just across the river and too dumb to anchor in more sheltered water upstream.
SW'lies are fierce from January through to April..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bR32ksf1hw0

[Kettlewell]

I have tried fighting ridiculous anti-anchoring laws in the past, and the bottom line is that only those of us who live in the area or the state have any possible clout or influence. We can shout and organize all we want to, wasting our time, but think about who you would possibly listen to if you were an official in Miami? Why should random cruisers on a forum have any say in what goes on there? Yes, I too believe that these are federal waters and should be free to navigate, and anchoring is part of navigation but in reality they won't listen to us unless we are voters there. For my own part I will simply avoid anyplace that becomes overregulated. There are many nicer places to visit as a cruiser anyway. No need to deal with the hassles.

[CanuckSailorguy]

More specifically, in Florida, the law permits anchoring at will, with certain exceptions which are well defined. The situation in Miami Beach is not one of those exceptions, and the proposed actions of the city actually are breaking the law.
And, despite your assumption, liveaboards are not homeless. Many do have land based homes. Others simply prefer to live on the water.
I'm a bit surprised that Sausalito is able to tow from a CFR. There is more to your story than you've said here.

Originally Posted by wholybee

Can you cite case law for that? Because the anchor outs in Sausalito keep losing that fight in court, and the courts have given the city authority to regulate and evict everyone. And they are doing that, not with rules and making it expensive like Miami Beach is doing, but by seizing boats when the owners are ashore and towing them straight to the crusher. And that anchorage is a "Special Anchorage" defined in CFR.

It isn't my job to tell the liveaboards what they are supposed to do. I can empathize with their becoming homeless, but that doesn't make me responsible for their actions.

[CanuckSailorguy]

John, you're always a voice of reason. The problem is, if we don't stop laws such as what MB is trying to do, there will soon be no place left for boaters to go in Florida. It's a serious concern here.

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I have tried fighting ridiculous anti-anchoring laws in the past, and the bottom line is that only those of us who live in the area or the state have any possible clout or influence. We can shout and organize all we want to, wasting our time, but think about who you would possibly listen to if you were an official in Miami? Why should random cruisers on a forum have any say in what goes on there? Yes, I too believe that these are federal waters and should be free to navigate, and anchoring is part of navigation but in reality they won't listen to us unless we are voters there. For my own part I will simply avoid anyplace that becomes overregulated. There are many nicer places to visit as a cruiser anyway. No need to deal with the hassles.

[CanuckSailorguy]

First of all - there is no place to go. There are more than 500 boats anchored in Biscayne Bay, some up to 100 feet. There are NO slips available for them - I've done that research. Three weeks ago, there were fewer than ten transient slips in the entire area, and no long term slips. Wait lists at mooring fields were three years.
As for anchoring being a cheap way to store your boat, mind explaining how people stored their boats before the marine industry got going? Yes, that's right, they stored their boats at anchor. The history of being at anchor far predates glitzy marinas.

Originally Posted by ekelly36

From an outsider / lurker who has not been to the area and as someone who is spending thousands of dollars to make sure my boat is in great condition, I also side with the other folks here, no one should have the right to just leave their boat anchored for weeks/months while not attending to the boat..... Folks that live aboard because they like it or for whatever reason shouldnt have any problems making sure their boat is tidy and up to par.... if it cant sail or move then it should be on the dry so they can fix it.....For the most part thats what ive been reading on how all this started..... How crappy is it for people who want to come visit the area to have no place to anchor or dock because of the majority that just want to leave their boats out unattended.... Anchoring shouldnt be just a cheap way to store your boat.... if you know you dont have the money to properly maintain the boat then you should sell it..... instead people just leave the boats out taking up space where other folks would like to anchor for the night or visit for a couple days.... NOW this is just me but... if I was going somewhere and knew I was leaving the area for weeks or months I would just find a place to haul the boat out to put it on a cradle..... there's always room somewhere even if its not exactly where its convenient.