Buy a boat that is ready to sail or Renovate one

[stewie]

Yep !!!

[redhead]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Far and away the best “value” in any boat is a boat that might have a higher initial price tag, but has been lovingly cared for, and continuously upgraded by an active owner.

There are no “bargains” in the boating world.

This.

I like to say that we are 4 years into our 6 month refit. That makes everyone laugh but it's really not so funny if you want to go sailing. There's a thing on an older boat called "project creep". Our latest example: put a new AC outlet in the aft companionway so we can use power tools up in the cockpit. First thing we found out was there wasn't enough light to work, so install a new overhead light in that area (we needed it anyway). Now, with plenty of light we start on the outlet, but wait - the AC breaker panel has too many things on that circuit, we have to sort this out (I know you can tell by the way I'm relating this story, that I am not an electrician). Finally after a good 8-10 hours we have a new AC outlet for cockpit tools.

Ours is an extreme example because it's an old custom boat, it would be slightly better with a production boat, BUT even on a "regular" boat you have to factor in previous owners' "improvements" and also their neglect. The wiring, the plumbing, the refrigeration, the head, the engine, the batteries, the windlass, the sails and ...and...and.

My earnest advice to you is to figure out your budget and buy the best maintained boat you can find. An OCD engineers boat would be perfect (although perhaps too complicated). I can almost guarantee you that whatever you think it will take to fix up a fixer upper it will take 3 times the money and time.

Good luck whatever you do!

[Pegu Club]

I agree with “Fore and aft” good hull, deck, rigging,and engine, then you can sail, and attend to the Leaning curve in a way that does not beat down your wallet right from the start. There are a lot of older boats in sailing condition that do not cost an arm and a leg, it is a buyers market for used boats, don’t let anyone tell you different. Just saying.

Fair winds,

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I have spent 8+ years working on cruise ships and one or two yachts as a photographer/videographer. "

Whatever makes you think that that can in any way have prepared you for skippering a cruising yacht? As tkeithlu sez: "At this point you need to learn to sail and determine that you do indeed like sailing."

A fundamental aspect of your present life that must be considered in making the choice you ask for counsel about, is whether you rely on wage/salary income to support your life, or whether you have passive income of considerable magnitude.

In the former case, if you have a family, the cost of refurbishing a fixer-upper is likely to place such demands on your cash flow and your time budget that you will be jeopardizing your family by undertaking the project. In the latter case, such a project will cost no less, and will still place more demands on your time than will a regular wage-paid job. You should also be aware that doing work of any consequence of a yacht demands that you have a well-equipped workshop NEXT TO THE YACHT. Otherwise the refurbishing task becomes intractable.

I note that you are in Capetown. I have no idea what facilities are available there, and I have no idea what the market for used yachts is like there. Here, in Vancouver, B.C., we have useful, but seldom used, yachts coming out of our ears. To do what you are best advised to do at this point in your metamorphosis from landsman to sailor, viz - as tkeithlu sez - learning to sail, you need spend no more than, say, Can$5,000 to purchase a boat. You will be able to sail it immediately (coastwise), so you can begin to learn the manifold mysteries that go into being a skipper. But boats deteriorate rapidly, and ordinary maintenance includes a new suit of sails, say every ten years, a new engine every 20 years, new standing rigging every ten years. A sensible man establishes a sinking fund to ensure that ready cash is available when these repairs become necessary. For my 30-footer of no particular merit or pretension I place Can$3,500 a year in the maintenance sinking fund. Remember also that there are mooring, haul-out and insurance costs. In my case they come to another Can$5K a year.

As for the make of boat you "should" buy, it really doesn't matter. Any competent skipper can sail whatever he is asked to sail. And you can learn to be a skipper in one make of boat as well as in any other because boat handling is the least of it.

So buy a functioning cheapie. Get in some sea-time. See if you like it. And if you do - then read, read, read, for the REAL skills of a competent skipper are not much related to boathandling. They are in some sense quite "academic" and can only be got by studying.

And never foget that no man should ever spend more money on a yacht than he can afford to walk away from, still with a smile on his face :-)!

All the best

TrentePieds

[michaelratinter]

I bought a 25 y.o. boat that had been sailed every weekend since she was launched. I am happy with my choice.

[Cpt Mark]

1st things 1st. You need to take sailing lessons and see if it is what you want to do. Then maybe find something in the 20-24 foot day sailing class. And old Columbia, Catalina, Hunter are mass produced boats and in my area you can get one for $1500 all day long and have a nice little boat to continue to learn on. Small boats is where you learn to sail, you'll learn the wind, waves and interaction of everything much faster. Big 40 foot boat I have had clients that have never learned that stuff and never will.

Now if you want something fast, fun and no marina fees, get a Laser. You'll learn quickly on those because who you make a mistake you'll be in the water righting the boat once again.

I would advise against buying a cruising boat to go cruising on. Learn the sailing bit first, go join some beer can races and meet other people and sail/see their boats and learn the differences between boats/systems.

BTW- I bought my 1st fixer upper. 40' cruising sailboat. Figured 1 year to do the work. 15 years later I sold the boat. Still needed a lot of projects done, some redone because they were 15 years old! In that time I learned serious shipwright skills that kept me busy with work for all that time and more.

Boat I have now is plastic. No wood outside. It's a cat and it had issues BUT, I know how to fix everything. I gave myself 1 year to do what needed to be done. Project creep comes in and it will be 2 years before I'm done.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Conradb

I am new to sailing and looking for suggestions on my first boat. Would it be better to buy a "ready to go" boat or buy cheaper and renovate over a couple of months?

If I buy a project boat, I will surely learn everything about the boat as I am renovating it, allowing me to pretty much fix everything myself.

If I buy a boat that is ready to go, it could take me quite a while before I learn everything and there is no guarantee that I will be able to fix it myself without paying an expert. ie. the repairs might be more expensive overall

Does anyone wish they renovated instead of buying RTG?

I renovated the last one. 4000work hours +$$$, so a little bit more than 2 months. If you buy RTG you are looking at 2 months - if you are lucky.

No, no regrets, I learned a lot.

Just because I did not learn my lesson, I bought this one, which needs lots of work. Spend the whole day today pulling hoses for a water tank. I though this would take about one hour, instead it took about 100 curses.

At least she is not in a constant state of sinking

[TheThunderbird]

Everyone can buy a boat.

Only a few may enjoy the taste of it, in touching, probing, renewing, ... in the doing of a mastery project.

Sure, you sail less, but you know more.

[RossD]

I enjoy working on my boats almost as much as using them, particularly if I can do it while in the water. Over the years, I've renovated several power boats (two very large ones) and several small boats. My regrets came from purchasing several new boats (I didn't learn quickly enough), big initial outlay of cash, workmanship not always up to par and always stuff to fix on them. Not to mention the depreciation. Try to find a good hull with a reliable engine and fairly up to date sails etc. Don't concern yourself so much with the interior, you can make new cushions and replace things at your own pace.

In February I purchased a 1985 Bayfield 29 cutter. Good bones, Yanmar diesel but a dated interior and some components in need of replacing. I'm working my way through the hull project with sanding, barrier coat and bottom paint. The thru hulls and other components below are in decent shape. We have very high water in Lake Ontario now, so my slip is under water, but I plan on launching at least by the end of this month. It's a commitment though, you need to love working on them. If it's a burden or you think you're going to race to the finish line, buy a so called ready to sail boat. Good luck!

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Conradb

the more I read up about it, the more I come to realize that buying a project boat is the quickest way to be one of those people with a boat that lives in their backyard

Bingo.

It's a general truism that buying a boat that has been well cared for, maintained, and updated will cost you less in the long term than fixing up the same model boat that has been neglected. Why? Because the prior owner is not going to get back anything near what they have put into the boat when they go to sell it. Not even remotely close. The best deals are those where the the owner has pressure on them to sell (health, financial, two boats, etc.) and is receptive too aggressive offers.

That said, there is a whole spectrum from "flawless bristol condition" to "needs work". But as mentioned, every boat needs work, and a lot of it, right out of the gate. Yes some boats can be brought back economically, but only by experienced owners who do the work themselves and know how to get materials and equipment at reasonable prices, which is at the very least time consuming.

Knowing how to fix everything on your boat is important, particularly if you expect to voyage far, but buying a fixer up is the long road to gaining that experience. I also laughed at a "couple of months". Boats are not at all like houses. They are sailing machines that also have auxiliary power, 12 v electrical systems, propane, plumbing, steering, etc. The list of equipment goes on and on.

Buy a good, well cared for boat, sail it locally or within easy reach of good enough yards, and learn as you go.

FYI, people who buy boats that need work and then sit on them working on them for a year, while they learn a lot, often make a hash out of the work that they do as they don't have direct experience operating and using the boat which can inform what you do to the boat and how.

[grantmc]

I have a SUV For Sale.

She has a blown engine and the sun roof has always leaked. There's nothing special about my car. It has had a very long sit under a tree in the backyard since the motor blew. Ok the paint work is pretty much shot, and old friends rust and time are doing their magic. Inside the damp has created an amazing micro climate and the seats and carpet have started an enchanted garden I'm watching with interest.

But it's really really cheap!

Actually it's so cheap it's free, I might even chuck in a couple of hundred. With many months of work (perhaps years) and some serious coin it would make a fantastic RV to see the length and breadth of our wonderful country New Zealand.

Why don't I just accept the loss and dump it? Because I'm confident that sooner or later an idiot with a dream will come along and take if off my hands.

Originally Posted by stewie

Buy a boat that you can sail today. Many fixer uppers never make the water as it all becomes too much. Go for it and learn on the way.

I totally agree with Stewie. In my experience only a small percentage of people buying fixer uppers ever go sailing. And of those that have got their boat in sailing condition again I've yet to see a single one actually go offshore.

I've seen many many such people over many years. Most end up abandoning their projects (dream) after spending ridiculously big quantities of money. Quite a number die and leave the hulk for their relatives to get rid of.

There are thousands of boats that are in reasonably good order, and good value for money ready to go. It's a buyers market seemingly in most places around the world. The more obscure the locale the better value the boats seem to be in fact. Why buy somebody else's pile of junk?

In some ways I've always regarded the fixer upper people as procrastinators. They'll always find another thing that needs fixing, add another gadget to the list of must haves, do another course. And so never actually leave the dock.

Go sailing! I always encourage sailing students to sign up to crew on other people's boats, then decide if you like the life.

I've a woman friend, late fifties, who's just back from a 3 year circumnavigation. She did it without a boat. Basically hitch hiked, mostly crewing for older couples on their giant cats. Most of her stories are of good experiences.

The question for you Conrad is this. What is your dream?
Is the dream to sail the wonderful blue seas?
Or do you dream of wriggling about in confined spaces, spanner in greasy dirty hand, head torch on, nut just out of reach?
And I'm not knocking either dream. But only you can know your own dreams.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Bingo.

It's a general truism that buying a boat that has been well cared for, maintained, and updated will cost you less in the long term than fixing up the same model boat that has been neglected. Why? Because the prior owner is not going to get back anything near what they have put into the boat when they go to sell it. Not even remotely close. The best deals are those where the the owner has pressure on them to sell (health, financial, two boats, etc.) and is receptive too aggressive offers.

That said, there is a whole spectrum from "flawless bristol condition" to "needs work". But as mentioned, every boat needs work, and a lot of it, right out of the gate. Yes some boats can be brought back economically, but only by experienced owners who do the work themselves and know how to get materials and equipment at reasonable prices, which is at the very least time consuming.

Knowing how to fix everything on your boat is important, particularly if you expect to voyage far, but buying a fixer up is the long road to gaining that experience. I also laughed at a "couple of months". Boats are not at all like houses. They are sailing machines that also have auxiliary power, 12 v electrical systems, propane, plumbing, steering, etc. The list of equipment goes on and on.

Buy a good, well cared for boat, sail it locally or within easy reach of good enough yards, and learn as you go.

FYI, people who buy boats that need work and then sit on them working on them for a year, while they learn a lot, often make a hash out of the work that they do as they don't have direct experience operating and using the boat which can inform what you do to the boat and how.

Wisest of the wise words here!

[john61ct]

Look for a boat where the owner

relatively wealthy perfectionist, drove his wife crazy with how much he sank into his beloved every year

has recently been rendered unable to sail anymore, usually health problems, or (ideally sorry for the vulture ism) death.

I say ideally, since the remaining family members won't be overestimating its value out of sentimental attachment, in fact may be happy to get rid of it quickly for a song.

Six months or years of sitting later, you're back to project boat headaches.

So like NYC apartment hunters, watch the obits and be ready to strike cash in hand!

But yes, learn to sail well on a wide variety of OPB first.

[jaylo264]

Quite a lot of bull on this thread -- at least here in Scotland there are really NOT that many projects which bite the dust.

And look for a quality, used, older, CHARTER BOAT --[that'll get em going]

Charter yachts HAVE to tick all the boxes noted above, as they will have to have good sails, rigging, plumbing, engine, etc

Maybe the sink will be a bit scratched, the curtains torn -- so what?

I may not know as much as some about sailing and boats, but I have learned a huge amount from renovation and doing it myself, including the feck ups. and I sail more relaxedly as a result jaylo

[hamburking]

The question is...do you want to go sailing? Or spend all your free time (and money) rebuilding a boat?

BUY A READY TO SAIL BOAT!

If you buy a project boat you will never, ever go sailing. You will most likely sell the boat in a few years at a huge financial loss.

There is a misconception that a project boat is cheaper. NOT TRUE. First, you can often buy a ready to sail boat for barely more than a project boat. Old boats in good condition are plentiful and cheap right now. Second, when you factor in the cost of parts (not even thinking about all the hours of labour you will do for free) the project boat is FAR MORE EXPENSIVE. Have you ever been to a "boating" parts store? The prices are insane!!! Stuff you expect to cost $2 actually costs $100.

When you go see a ready to sail boat, for sure the seller will tell you of all the costs and improvements he has made to the boat...often far exceeding the value (or price) of the boat.

I bought a Pearson 30 not so many years ago. The previous owner had installed a new chartplotter ($1000+), new mainsail ($2000+), new standing rigging ($1000+), new water tanks, and new exhaust system. The owner prior to him had installed a new diesel engine ($10,000+). I paid a small fraction of the cost of these huge upgrades but got to enjoy them all to the fullest on the very first day of ownership.

There are lots of really great, ready to sail, boats out there right now at very low prices...its a total buyers market right now....enjoy it!!!!