Film Dunkirk

[admiralslater]

Several years ago my wife and I took a cruise from The parliament buildings to Hampton Court along the Thames . I noticed a shiny brass plaque say the vessel was a "Small boat " . Low freeboard ,narrow ,underpowered. I don't know if those guys where brave or just said "come on lads there's work to do"

[softdown]

Originally Posted by meatservo

Are you in your parent's basement in your underwear...

I considered that a personal challenge!

meatservo

Actually, I own five homes, eight cars, and four boats. Are you GS 11, 12, or 13? You have already rolled out the skeptanazi paradigm....I knew it was coming.

[a64pilot]

Easy now gents, the number 1 rule here is to play nice.
One doesn't go into a biker bar and start demeaning them and not expect something.
Maybe the same here, some of us old people feel we owe a debt to those that went before, it's not perfect, but it ain't bad either, likely except for their sacrifice, it would be a lot worse
Just who do you think made it possible for you to have all those material possessions?

With that, I'm going to bed, but as we say down South, Ya'll play nice, OK

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Several years ago my wife and I took a cruise from The parliament buildings to Hampton Court along the Thames . I noticed a shiny brass plaque say the vessel was a "Small boat " . Low freeboard ,narrow ,underpowered. I don't know if those guys where brave or just said "come on lads there's work to do"

You know I think bravery a lot of time stems from the love of a fellow man, you do what you think you have to, cause you know if you don't, they may not survive, you don't think you may not.
Nothing in the world is braver than a Mamma Cat defending her kittens, and yet we don't normally think of them as brave, but put them in that position, and they are.

[Astrid]

As to why the Germans paused at Dunkirk,this study might shed some light:
https://defenceindepth.co/2016/07/11...an-halt-order/

[meatservo]

Originally Posted by softdown

Actually, I own five homes, eight cars, and four boats. Are you GS 11, 12, or 13? You have already rolled out the skeptanazi paradigm....I knew it was coming.

It's all good brother! I was trying to be funny, if I offended you accept my apology...



meatservo

[softdown]

Lots and lots of great WWII programs on Netflix right now. While no doubt forgetting maybe half a dozen, here are many things that could have, likely would have influenced the outcome of the war (i.e.- Hitlers judgement lost the war):
1: Spending 500 billion (todays currency) on Werner's rocket program that accomplished little during the war. Though it certainly facilitated the space race between the USSR and the USA after the German scientists got divvied up.
2: The Atlantic Wall was simply Mission Impossible (sans Tom Cruise). Especially the gigantic build up of the Channel Islands - which had no strategic value.
3: Allowing the Brits to escape at Dunkirk. We then turned England into a military base. The Germans simply could not beat the British, the Russians, and the Americans simultaneously.
4: Losing an Enigma machine to the Allies and failing to recognize that we had a machine.
5: Failing to walk the English seacoast and determining the actual invasion location.
6: Giving up on engaging the RAF and bombing London instead. The RAF was on the verge of collapse before Germany dis-engaged. That allowed the RAF to regroup. Bombing London was of questionable strategic value.
7: The submarine program was extremely successful until we were able to find the subs with radar. If they had the Type 21 submarine two years earlier, they would have choked off England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine...the information here is biased. We used the extremely advanced Type 21 as the prototype for our first nuclear submarine, the Nautilus.
8: The Panzer I was way too small, the Panzer V and VI were insanely large and unusable in battle. The Tiger was over-engineered and subject to break downs. With better tanks, much would have changed. The Russian T-34 was simply better than the early Panzer's.
9: Rushing into Russia without preparation for Russian winters. Hitlers stubborn refusal to withdraw from Stalingrad during the vicious winter of 1941 cost Germany 650,000 soldiers by itself.
10: Focusing on Jews and gypsies and other "undesirables."
11: Germany simply ran out of fuel towards the end. They had been importing oil from Russia and the USA. They created expensive synthetic fuels from their vast coal supplies but they were very expensive and labor intensive.
12: Hitler decided he was a military genius after his gambles in France paid off. He subsequently refused to listen to his Generals during the ill fated Russian campaign. There was friction due to his rise from peasant to Corporal while German generals were upper class aristocrats in the previously reigning Weimar Republic.
13: No aircraft carriers.
14: They developed jets that flew 150 mph faster but lacked the fuel for flight.
15: Bailing out Mussolini's blunders.
16: Responding very slowly to D-Day though the writing was pretty much "on the wall" by then. Hitler woke up 4 hours after the invasion started at 6am. Nothing major could happen without his authorization.
17: Should have jumped on the jet engined Messerschmidt program. With fuel and a 150 mph speed advantage, this would have been an incalculable advantage.
18: Hitlers later refusal to surrender was simply inexplicable, similar to Japan's great folly.

It took three out of the five strongest military's in the world to subdue the Third Reich. That is simply and positively astounding. It was probably the finest military in the history of the world.

Hitler saved Europe from Stalin. Russia saved the world from Hitler.

[meatservo]

America, Russia, England, Australia, and France saved the world from hitler...

93% of German casualties, however, were were sustained from the russians...



meatservo

[softdown]

Originally Posted by meatservo

America, Russia, England, Australia, and France saved the world from hitler...

93% of German casualties, however, were were sustained from the russians...



meatservo

Gee, he knows the names of some of the Allies. Off to the Ignore bin...based on history.

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by softdown

Lots and lots of great WWII programs on Netflix right now. While no doubt forgetting maybe half a dozen, here are many things that could have, likely would have influenced the outcome of the war (i.e.- Hitlers judgement lost the war):
1: Spending 500 billion (todays currency) on Werner's rocket program that accomplished little during the war. Though it certainly facilitated the space race between the USSR and the USA after the German scientists got divvied up.
2: The Atlantic Wall was simply Mission Impossible (sans Tom Cruise). Especially the gigantic build up of the Channel Islands - which had no strategic value.
3: Allowing the Brits to escape at Dunkirk. We then turned England into a military base. The Germans simply could not beat the British, the Russians, and the Americans simultaneously.
4: Losing an Enigma machine to the Allies and failing to recognize that we had a machine.
5: Failing to walk the English seacoast and determining the actual invasion location.
6: Giving up on engaging the RAF and bombing London instead. The RAF was on the verge of collapse before Germany dis-engaged. That allowed the RAF to regroup. Bombing London was of questionable strategic value.
7: The submarine program was extremely successful until we were able to find the subs with radar. If they had the Type 21 submarine two years earlier, they would have choked off England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine...the information here is biased. We used the extremely advanced Type 21 as the prototype for our first nuclear submarine, the Nautilus.
8: The Panzer I was way too small, the Panzer V and VI were insanely large and unusable in battle. The Tiger was over-engineered and subject to break downs. With better tanks, much would have changed. The Russian T-34 was simply better than the early Panzer's.
9: Rushing into Russia without preparation for Russian winters. Hitlers stubborn refusal to withdraw from Stalingrad during the vicious winter of 1941 cost Germany 650,000 soldiers by itself.
10: Focusing on Jews and gypsies and other "undesirables."
11: Germany simply ran out of fuel towards the end. They had been importing oil from Russia and the USA. They created expensive synthetic fuels from their vast coal supplies but they were very expensive and labor intensive.
12: Hitler decided he was a military genius after his gambles in France paid off. He subsequently refused to listen to his Generals during the ill fated Russian campaign. There was friction due to his rise from peasant to Corporal while German generals were upper class aristocrats in the previously reigning Weimar Republic.
13: No aircraft carriers.
14: They developed jets that flew 150 mph faster but lacked the fuel for flight.
15: Bailing out Mussolini's blunders.
16: Responding very slowly to D-Day though the writing was pretty much "on the wall" by then. Hitler woke up 4 hours after the invasion started at 6am. Nothing major could happen without his authorization.
17: Should have jumped on the jet engined Messerschmidt program. With fuel and a 150 mph speed advantage, this would have been an incalculable advantage.
18: Hitlers later refusal to surrender was simply inexplicable, similar to Japan's great folly.

It took three out of the five strongest military's in the world to subdue the Third Reich. That is simply and positively astounding. It was probably the finest military in the history of the world.

Hitler saved Europe from Stalin. Russia saved the world from Hitler.

Balderdash! Russia may have helped save the world from Hitler, however Stalin prior to WW2, had never made any serious territorial demands on Western Europe except for the Baltic nations. Stalin aided Hitler's European conquest with the signing of their mutual non-aggression pact and actually assisted Hitler in the destruction and partition of Poland. I believe that Hitler, Germany and WW2 actually made Stalin more secure in his control of Russia and this security allowed Stalin to drop the "Iron Curtain" across eastern Europe at wars end.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Balderdash! Russia may have helped save the world from Hitler, however Stalin prior to WW2, had never made any serious territorial demands on Western Europe except for the Baltic nations. Stalin aided Hitler's European conquest with the signing of their mutual non-aggression pact and actually assisted Hitler in the destruction and partition of Poland. I believe that Hitler, Germany and WW2 actually made Stalin more secure in his control of Russia and this security allowed Stalin to drop the "Iron Curtain" across eastern Europe at wars end.

All true!

But it is also true that the Soviets were the ones that, in the end, did the real fighting. As Meatservo correctly stated, 93% of German casualties were incurred in fighting with Soviet forces -- according to the Germans' own figures (and the real percentage is probably higher due to high numbers of MIAs on the Eastern Front) . The Western Front was a minor sideshow, compared to the big war, biggest in all of human history, fought between 1941 and 1945 between Germans and Soviets, with minor participation of others like Romanians.

At least 11 million Soviet soldiers were killed! Taking about 5 million German soldiers with them. And millions of civilians on both sides.

The way we learn WW2 history in American schools hugely exaggerates the importance of our role (in the "European Theatre", anyway - we WERE the main combatant in the Pacific, of course).

[AiniA]

Saw the film yesterday in 70 mm IMAX. Quite a remarkable film experience, it grabs your attention and does not let go. It is quite literally one of the best movies that I have ever seen and the best war movie. If you can get to a 70 mm IMAX theatre for the movie it is well worth the effort, for us was about 100 km away.

The reason that some people have problems with the movie is that they prefer more of a linear. chronological approach, a la Saving Private Ryan. This movie does not pretend to be a documentary style film covering the whole event including what came before and after. BTW, my father, who was in the Canadian army was in France a few weeks after Dunkirk was over. A Canadian division and a British division were sent to Brittany when it was thought that the French might continue resistance against the Germans. When it became apparent this was not the case they made every attempt to get back to England. The Canadians got out with virtually no casualties although they lost had to abandon heavy equipment like trucks and artillery pieces (threw it into the harbour). When I was a kid our next door neighbour was a British army vet who had part of the British division. He was captured and spent five years as a POW.

[gamayun]

I was standing in line to see Atomic Blonde (yeah, Charlize Theron is fun to watch as a bad ass double agent), but the older women in front of me were going to see Dunkirk. I asked them about it and the one who had researched the movie said it was the community that rallied their vessels to save the soldiers. That's what was so prominent in her reading of this history. I don't often go to movies, but will save this one for when it makes it to Amazon Prime. There are just too many war movies that tend to all turn into the same save-the-buddy-but-he-dies-so-we-all-cry story. Why not make a kick ass woman sailor movie and see how that turns out...?!

[meatservo]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I was standing in line to see Atomic Blonde (yeah, Charlize Theron is fun to watch as a bad ass double agent), but the older women in front of me were going to see Dunkirk. I asked them about it and the one who had researched the movie said it was the community that rallied their vessels to save the soldiers. That's what was so prominent in her reading of this history. I don't often go to movies, but will save this one for when it makes it to Amazon Prime. There are just too many war movies that tend to all turn into the same save-the-buddy-but-he-dies-so-we-all-cry story. Why not make a kick ass woman sailor movie and see how that turns out...?!

It will turn out the same way! I just don't anybody seeing me crying...

meatservo

[sea2ocean]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That is the one thing I never have understood, that is why did the Germans allow the evac? They could have probably annihilated the Brits, but didn't for whatever reason. Hitler really didn't have anything against the Brits and I believe wanted a cessation of hostilities with them, maybe that was why?

Tanks need fuel and support to keep moving. Their supply lines were extended. The area in Dunkirk also isn't a great operating theatre for tanks. Pushing forward would put what was his greatest asset at risk.

The Luftwaffe also expected that they could do the job. The weather and RAF stopped that from happening.

As for the movie, Dunkirk isn't the usual celebratory plot. It's not East Company being surrounded and making it through. It's a rescue, which while a massive important feat in WW2, doesn't make for the typical war movie.

The movie did a good job of capturing the feel of the time. It showed clearly what the soldiers were going through, how they were given a pass for certain behavior and how a lot of people put their lives at risk. It also showed the fear of soldiers returning that they were an embarrassment to their country and the guilt they carried. They weren't.

It did all of that without being overt about things. It was quite well done. Being shot in 70mm was great.