Under What Flag Would You Register ?

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by chinamooninoz

We have friends in NZ who do exactly the opposite. They have dual NZ/Canada citizenship. They enter NZ on their Canadian passports, and Canada on their NZ passports. They reckon it gives them the option of claiming consular protection if needed. Interesting.

I would say that is illegal. And from a legal point of of view - it doesn't matter what passport you show. What matters is that you are citizen. Also a country can withdraw your citizenship if you are doing "unworthy" things re your country ...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by chinamooninoz

We are considering purchase of a SSR registered, VAT paid boat which is (has been for years) in France. We are Aussie resident, but Dual passport holders (UK/ Aust).
We have had lots of advice, and will soon have to act on it.

One broker says "the main goal is to retain the SSR status"

The most honest option is to get Aussie registered: small inconvenience, moderately expensive. But do we have to move the boat from France every 6 months?

After reading this discussion I wonder about Gibralter registration

Why is it important to retain the SSR

To legally retain the SSR requires you to be " established" in the UK. Ie have a permanent address there.

If you get Aussie registration, you will have 18 months vat free time in the EU. Resettable by spending a day outside.

In fact simply registering the yacht does not remove its vat status. So once you can prove it wasn't exported from the EU it can remain indefinitely.

Don't over think this. Register it legally. The VAT will never be an issue as long as you don't inadvertently become EU tax residents.

If using your UK passports ensure you carry proof that you live in Oz

Dave

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Zonker

I would say that is illegal.

Why? If you are a legal citizen of New Zealand ( which they are with dual citizenship) what is wrong in requesting (and getting) help from the New Zealand consulate. There are situations such a natural disaster in New Zealand where they would be best authorities to provide information and help.

Providing the New Zealand passport is valid what wrong with using it to enter any country?

[Zonker]

As I understand he/she would enter NZ disguised as a Canadian (passport) and hope to get Canadian consulate assistance if something goes wrong. Smells awfully wrong.

[chinamooninoz]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why is it important to retain the SSR

To legally retain the SSR requires you to be " established" in the UK. Ie have a permanent address there.

If you get Aussie registration, you will have 18 months vat free time in the EU. Resettable by spending a day outside.

In fact simply registering the yacht does not remove its vat status. So once you can prove it wasn't exported from the EU it can remain indefinitely.

Don't over think this. Register it legally. The VAT will never be an issue as long as you don't inadvertently become EU tax residents.

If using your UK passports ensure you carry proof that you live in Oz

Dave

Thanks Dave, that goes with my gut instincts too.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If you get Aussie registration, you will have 18 months vat free time in the EU. Resettable by spending a day outside.

No, you have to spend 6 months outside to "reset" it. Which is why, once I have my boat, I'll have it spend it's second winter in Turkey...

Interestingly if you are a EU citizen (which chinamooninoz is since they have a UK passport) you can flag your boat in any EU country. Some countries (Belgium springs to mind) don't require any form of sailing licence to operate yachts.

[Zonker]

KVB ... I just realized today that I don't have to / am not gonna do the Hochseeschein. The fine print says if operating Swiss flagged boats you need it. Since I plan to use a flag of convenience, it would be a waste of time and money.

So for me it's back to Day Skipper Certificate (at least to have something that looks like a license ... :-)

Re "reset" - don't you have to be a EU resident in order to be able to register (kinda same like a car) ? And if you register, it might come with a bunch of rules how the vessel has to be equipped etc.

[noelex 77]

Making up and printing your own licence is commonly done even surprisingly for commercial skippers in some European countries.

[Zonker]

Yea ... just recently re a different matter, I spoke to a government hired lawyer. He said, it's legal to print a license yourself, as long as it doesn't look official. So don't even need a sophisticated printer, just use the home ink jet ... :-)

[CeesH]

Originally Posted by chinamooninoz

................................After reading this discussion I wonder about Gibralter registration

I think Jersey is more easy and cheap.

"The Certificate of Registry is valid for 10 years if ownership does not change during this period (other REG registries are valid for 5 years only)."

The costs for a 10 years registration are only 400 GBP.

See the official State of Jersey website for more info; State of Jersey British Register Ships

CeesH

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Zonker

Re "reset" - don't you have to be a EU resident in order to be able to register (kinda same like a car) ? And if you register, it might come with a bunch of rules how the vessel has to be equipped etc.

You don't have to be a resident. Any EU national can get a boat registered in Belgium for example, and I do know that this route is quite popular with the French, as Belgium apparently has less rules than France.

The Netherlands is another country where you don't need any licence to operate a yacht. It's because I grew up in Belgium that I never really bothered getting any papers...
(Belgium was also quite late in introducing driving licenses. My parents both never took a driving test...)

[K_V_B]

Malta might also be interesting, as it appears to offer a route to "VAT Paid status" at an effective VAT rate of 9%...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by CeesH

I think Jersey is more easy and cheap.

"The Certificate of Registry is valid for 10 years if ownership does not change during this period (other REG registries are valid for 5 years only)."

The costs for a 10 years registration are only 400 GBP.

See the official State of Jersey website for more info; State of Jersey British Register Ships

CeesH

+1 for Jersey

But if you are not a resident (in Jersey) will need a local representative who (in theory) is the contact between the Registry and the Owner (so the Registry have an address they can serve papers on / issue notices to etc etc), but who (in practice) does SFA - but the local representative nonetheless does charge for the service.........plus of couse for that Part 1 Registration will need a one off Tonnage Survey (no biggie - but an added cost).

With boat registration it is all swings and roundabouts (plusses and minuses to each place, whether conveniance or cost)......personally I would suggest needing a good reason for not using home country as the flag.....but for some there are good reasons (like Saucy who is leaving Kuwait to go RTW but can't use existing Kuwaiti Reg without keeping an address there - and does not want to go EU, just in case they one day go there by boat and it confuses matters on the VAT - with them having EU passports but long since stopped being resident in the EU).

[Zonker]

Anyone considered to use an UK Ltd to register a boat ? I would assume that registration fees are much lower then some of the "flag of convenience" countries.

Question though is where is the company maintenance cheaper ?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Zonker

Anyone considered to use an UK Ltd to register a boat ? I would assume that registration fees are much lower then some of the "flag of convenience" countries.

Question though is where is the company maintenance cheaper ?

It don't get much cheaper than a UK company to run (a little bit of annual paperwork though - have a look at Companies House. will also need to do an annual tax return, but depending on exactly what you set up might even be able to claim dormant status so even that drops away - at least annually). The main cost will be for a UK registered office address, either paid for or borrowed from a freind / contact.

Annual boat registration costs much the same as any of the other Red Ensign "flags of conveniance" (BVI / Jersey etc) and IMO competitive to others, main cost though being the one off tonnage survey for initial registration.

Been mentioned here before that UK (EU?) doesn't like "hobby" or non commercial companies - but nonetheless IME (personally & proffessionally) absolutely no problem in using a UK company as simply a (non-trading) holding company - even for assets it doesn't actually own! (i.e. for Title only) - and that includes examples of UK property, fully declared to HMRC (UK tax man) and even where the UK property is used commercially (i.e. generates rental income) by someone else (they do of course have to do own tax returns!). Boats in a UK company do not however spring to mind - but that likely simply because over here we would simply flog 'em a Jersey company - mostly for commercial reasons - "ours" and theirs (Jersey company next to zero work to look after when they do SFA, so costs the punter less overall) - plus usually of course an "offshore" reason for a punter doing business over here. Unless the asset is stuck onshore (like a property in the UK) then usually best not to go near onshore, for simplicity of the story if nothing else.

The good news with UK boat reg is that it is not automatic guaranteed 100% title (as it appears to be in the USA and other places?) - the evidence of that being that it says so (as a warning!) on the actual boat reg docs......so can split off ownership (title) from registration.

But at the end of the day to do things properly will involve putting hand in pocket .