Flag Etiquette Question

[Hoofsmit]

Seaworthy
"PS There does seem to be some dispute about the term "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" for the national flag though ."
I don't think so in uk waters but maybe on land

This does bring up a question for any in the know?
Cornwall in the uk is now a recognised national minority and st pirans flag is often seen hoisted as a courtesy flag by visiting craft and flown as an ensign locally, who actually prescribes the correct etiquette both in the uk and internationally

[ATTACH]86408


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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Seaworthy
"PS There does seem to be some dispute about the term "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" for the national flag though ."
I don't think so in uk waters but maybe on land

This does bring up a question for any in the know?
Cornwall in the uk is now a recognised national minority and st pirans flag is often seen hoisted as a courtesy flag by visiting craft and flown as an ensign locally, who actually prescribes the correct etiquette both in the uk and internationally

[ATTACH]86408


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I'm not aware, except amongst the ill informed as any confusion over the name of the UK national flag. However the term Union Jack is bandied about with gay abandon.

As for regional flags. It's common around UK waters and elsewhere to see a variety of regional, or pseudo-political ensigns or burgers however it is still wrong to substitute national the maritime ensign or national courtesy flag. ( in Ireland you can often see county flags being used for example )

Personally I fly the regional burgee /flag on the starboard flag halyard below the national courtesy flag. I do receive a few comments about that from time to time ( Scotland , Brittany etc ) , house flags and other assorted " bunting " get flown on the port halyard of course.

Dave

[Jim Cate]

After reading all the rather passionate avowals of flag etiquette, I find that I am glad to be sailing in the (sort of) classless society waters of Australia and the South Pacific. To my somewhat plebeian views, anything beyond identifying the nationality of the vessel and exhibiting the appropriate courtesy flag if in foreign waters becomes a form of snobbery and affectation... " I belong to a ROYAL club... you may kiss my ring if you approach on your knees" sort of thing. Not my cup of tea or glass of beer.

I guess colonials are pretty hopeless.

Jim

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

After reading all the rather passionate avowals of flag etiquette, I find that I am glad to be sailing in the (sort of) classless society waters of Australia and the South Pacific. To my somewhat plebeian views, anything beyond identifying the nationality of the vessel and exhibiting the appropriate courtesy flag if in foreign waters becomes a form of snobbery and affectation... " I belong to a ROYAL club... you may kiss my ring if you approach on your knees" sort of thing. Not my cup of tea or glass of beer.

I guess colonials are pretty hopeless.

Jim

Personally I'm not a yacht club type of person. But I do like all the variety of ensigns , club burgees, commodores flags etc. Makes for an interesting " spectacle "

Dave

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Seaworthy
"PS There does seem to be some dispute about the term "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" for the national flag though ."
I don't think so in uk waters but maybe on land

This does bring up a question for any in the know?
Cornwall in the uk is now a recognised national minority and st pirans flag is often seen hoisted as a courtesy flag by visiting craft and flown as an ensign locally, who actually prescribes the correct etiquette both in the uk and internationally

[ATTACH]86408


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

and don't forget where pasties come from either......emmet....emmmet

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Personally I fly the regional burgee /flag on the starboard flag halyard below the national courtesy flag. I do receive a few comments about that from time to time ( Scotland , Brittany etc ) , house flags and other assorted " bunting " get flown on the port halyard of course.

Dave

I always thought the Scottish flew their assorted buntings more from the rear

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-cont...EANFREEDOM.jpg

[Blue Crab]

Here's the ad I'm seeing under this last post:

[carstenb]

Since we're debating flag etiquette..........................

The Danish national flag is raised at sunup and taken down at sunset.

What about national courtesy flags? IN principle, they should also be raised at sunup and taken down at sunset.

Which flag is hoisted first? Which flag is taken down first?

I believe the correct order is the courtesy flag comes down first and is raised last. Any other opinions? (yeah - like here on CF no one has an opinion LOL)

[Jim Cate]

Carsten, how do you feel about dueling to resolve national pride issues surrounding flag raising/striking or relative sizes? I think pistols at ten paces are about right, and appropriate to the severity of the controversy.!

Really, do folks actually care about these things? Am I THAT out of touch with reality. Could be... stranger things have happened!

Jim

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Carsten, how do you feel about dueling to resolve national pride issues surrounding flag raising/striking or relative sizes? I think pistols at ten paces are about right, and appropriate to the severity of the controversy.!

Really, do folks actually care about these things? Am I THAT out of touch with reality. Could be... stranger things have happened!

Jim

Hey Jim, you're OK; it's them that care who are outta touch with reality...

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Carsten, how do you feel about dueling to resolve national pride issues surrounding flag raising/striking or relative sizes? I think pistols at ten paces are about right, and appropriate to the severity of the controversy.!

Really, do folks actually care about these things? Am I THAT out of touch with reality. Could be... stranger things have happened!

Jim

I shall have my seconds call on you in the morning Sir! As the offend party - you are entitled the choice of weaponry!

Actually Jim, I don't know that anyone cares about which flag is hoisted first (I take that back - some really do care). I just figure that I might as well do it correctly if I'm going to do it.

By the way (yes I AM a nerd). you can only strike your colors when you have lost the battle. Lowering your flag at night is not striking it. When you strike your colors - you are surrendering.

[Hoofsmit]

Really, do folks actually care about these things? Am I THAT out of touch with reality. Could be... stranger things have happened!"

Yep they do

I see it as good manners, to me, if you where invited to a party where a black tie dress code was requested it would be rude to turn up in shorts and tee shirt, like wise , if I turned up to your potluck in my dickybow that would suggest a similar disrespect and maybe that I considered my self importance to be above your status.
I suppose it is a social, conformity,civilisation thing ........ But seeing some cruisers are escaping from such restrictions, flag etiquette may well be seen as conformity !







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[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by carstenb

By the way (yes I AM a nerd). you can only strike your colors when you have lost the battle.

Actually this only applies to a naval vessel. If a civilian vessel is being fired on it is allowed to strike its colours as a sneaky tactic. A little ungentlemanly, but when the chips are down anything goes .

By the way, no sign of the queen skinny dipping off that boat with the Union Jack flying .

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Actually this only applies to a naval vessel. If a civilian vessel is being fired on it is allowed to strike its colours as a sneaky tactic. A little ungentlemanly, but when the chips are down anything goes .

By the way, no sign of the queen skinny dipping off that boat with the Union Jack flying .

wiki: Striking the colors, meaning to lower the flag (the "colors") which signifies a ship's or garrison's allegiance, is a universally recognized indication of surrender, particularly for ships at sea. A merchant ship may strike its colors as a ruse de guerre in an attempt to escape capture, since it does not engage the enemy in combat.

You're perfectly correct - but the act of "striking one's colors" still bears the significance of surrending in battle, even though the merchant ship is not military.

I pleased to see that I'm not the only nerd around here Lassie

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Hoofsmit

Really, do folks actually care about these things? Am I THAT out of touch with reality. Could be... stranger things have happened!"

Yep they do

I see it as good manners, to me, if you where invited to a party where a black tie dress code was requested it would be rude to turn up in shorts and tee shirt, like wise , if I turned up to your potluck in my dickybow that would suggest a similar disrespect and maybe that I considered my self importance to be above your status.
I suppose it is a social, conformity,civilisation thing ........ But seeing some cruisers are escaping from such restrictions, flag etiquette may well be seen as conformity !







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Well, that's an interesting point of view, Hoofie. And really, I do try to have good manners as a general thing. But in this case, exactly who has defined what constitutes "good manners"? Seems to be a mix of blue blood, blazer wearing self adulating toffs and retired Naval officers. I have great respect for the latter, and very little respect for the former.

So, when told (a rough quote from an earlier post) that I must fly my YC burgee from a pigstick at the masthead and nowhere else, I get a little feeling of rebellion. Don't have any tea to throw into the harbour, but it is the same feeling! And it expands to include many of the strictures that have been reported in this thread.

Again, I will willingly fly my appropriate national ensign, and when (as most of the time) in foreign waters the appropriate national courtesy flag from a convenient halyard on the port spreader. I think that this shows a reasonable degree of respect for the countries involved. But worrying about orders of precedence, relative size and exact disposition of the flags is beyond me. If that makes me uncivilized, so be it. Oh, I also fly the Q flag when appropriate.

So far, we have been welcomed to all the countries that we have visited, and left a reasonably clean wake behind. I'd be pretty upset if some wanker called me out because I lowered the courtesy flag in the wrong order, or some such thing. But then, I'm only a colonial...

Jim