Charter yacht collided with me, seeking advice.

[Sand crab]

Could you please post the pics of the damage?

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Could you please post the pics of the damage?

I would but given that it’s public forum etc I’m going to hold off on posting specifics that may be of use to the offending party. Sorry.

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by dannc

Yes, the FWC is the state agency to file the report and they will do an investigation.

Once upon a time, Florida had the GFC, which was the law enforcement agency that was fresh water focused, and the FMP(Florida Marine Patrol) which was salt water focused but there was some overlap. Eventually, the two state agencies were merged into the FWC. The FWC is the state law enforcement agency you need to talk too.

It is possible that Miami would take a report but they might just hand it off to the FWC.

Later,
Dan

Copy that. Thanks.

[BillKny]

Solitare:

I am sorry if I missed this in the pages behind, but do you know if the Skipper of the boat was hired? or licensed?

That WOULD be a way to get the USCG involved. An accident when a licensed Captain is involved IS under their jurisdiction.

Montanan's rant about the USCG back a page was completely off base. All he did was prove that internet legal advice is worth LESS than you pay for it.

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by BillKny

Solitare:



I am sorry if I missed this in the pages behind, but do you know if the Skipper of the boat was hired? or licensed?



That WOULD be a way to get the USCG involved. An accident when a licensed Captain is involved IS under their jurisdiction.



Montanan's rant about the USCG back a page was completely off base. All he did was prove that internet legal advice is worth LESS than you pay for it.

It was definitely professionally crewed. There was a captain, and two stewards/ or a mate and a steward. Now whether I can prove that is another story. Once I speak to the investigator who has supposedly reached out to the captain lI should know more about that part.

[JPA Cate]

In the meantime, you may be able to recover the anchors and chain, if you have still got a record of the lat/lon of where the allision occurred. We successfully retrieved an anchor, with its chain by dragging with a sand anchor (a grapnel would have worked better) from our dinghy. If the water's clear, maybe you could see them lying on the bottom, but if not, knowing where it is greatly reduces the effort and time.

You can make free buoys to mark the area, with soda bottles, cheap polypro line, and a rock. (Have done this, too, to mark a submerged rock for some friends arriving late to an anchorage.)

Try and make your time count. Maybe pick up some work and pay for a survey to prioritize what you have to do to regain seaworthiness. Document your progress.

When/if this comes to court, judges and juries will be favorably impressed by what you have done to help yourself.

Ann

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

In the meantime, you may be able to recover the anchors and chain, if you have still got a record of the lat/lon of where the allision occurred. We successfully retrieved an anchor, with its chain by dragging with a sand anchor (a grapnel would have worked better) from our dinghy. If the water's clear, maybe you could see them lying on the bottom, but if not, knowing where it is greatly reduces the effort and time.

You can make free buoys to mark the area, with soda bottles, cheap polypro line, and a rock. (Have done this, too, to mark a submerged rock for some friends arriving late to an anchorage.)

Try and make your time count. Maybe pick up some work and pay for a survey to prioritize what you have to do to regain seaworthiness. Document your progress.

When/if this comes to court, judges and juries will be favorably impressed by what you have done to help yourself.

Ann

Good advice on all fronts. Especially using the grapnel to help locate the anchor. (Normally I’ve got no problem diving but as luck would have it two days prior to this incident I was in the hospital for three days with pneumonia) I was trying to think how I could start the search with still limited lung capacity. The visibility/current etc are not conducive to an easy dive search, so the anchor rake trick will help.

Thanks.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Montanan

The reply of the USCG regarding being unable to file a report regarding the accident because the boats were recreational is INCORRECT. Recreational boats are required by law to report the accident and the USCG has a form specifically for use in reporting recreational boat accidents.

To reiterate my prior post I will copy the information again.

Recommend that you return to the USCG and file the report and demand that they investigate. They are blowing you off and NOT doing their mandated tasks. Ask to meet with the Commander in charge of the duty station, go up the chain of command.

Federal law requires the operator or owner of a recreational vessel to file a boating accident report with the State reporting authority if the recreational vessel is involved in an accident that results in any of the following:

A person dies
A person is injured and requires medical treatment beyond first aid
A person disappears from the vessel under circumstances that indicate death or injury
Damage to vessels and other property totals $2,000 (lower amounts in some states and territories).
The boat is destroyed.

Report Timelines:

Within 48 hours if a person, dies within 24 hours, is injured and requires medical treatment beyond first aid, or disappears from the vessel under circumstances that indicate death or injury.
Within 10 days of the occurrence or death if earlier reporting is not required.
The information you provide is used to establish regulations and safety standards, identify and remedy boat defects, educate recreational boaters, capture statistical data, investigate accidents, and measure the effectiveness of boating safety programs.

Accident Reporting Forms


CG-3865 Recreational Boating Accident Report

Link:

http://www.d1south.org/Downloads/Doc...LP/CG-3865.pdf

While you're correct in part, you're also confusing two different systems. The Coast Guard reporting system is, as you quoted "used to establish regulations and safety standards, identify and remedy boat defects, educate recreational boaters, capture statistical data, investigate accidents, and measure the effectiveness of boating safety programs." It is a lessons learned system, not a legal system.

So by all means, the OP should report it to the Coast Guard so that the data can be used to improve existing laws and programs. However that is a very different thing from investigating, assigning blame, and forcing compensation, which is what the OP needs. That is very distinctly not the function of the Coast Guard system you quote.

You may be interested to know that most safety programs are split in this manner. You can't learn much to improve safety if participants have legal peril hanging over their head, which tends to lead one to clam up. As a result, especially in aviation and at sea, there is a dual track approach to mishaps. One is the safety track, which not only avoids trying to assign legal blame but is prohibited from doing so, often with statements made privileged from use in legal proceedings. At the same time a parallel but completely separate legal track is conducted to assign blame and determine punishment and compensation. You don't want to confuse those two tracks, their separation is essential to actually being able to learn from our mistakes.

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

While you're correct in part, you're also confusing two different systems. The Coast Guard reporting system is, as you quoted "used to establish regulations and safety standards, identify and remedy boat defects, educate recreational boaters, capture statistical data, investigate accidents, and measure the effectiveness of boating safety programs." It is a lessons learned system, not a legal system.

So by all means, the OP should report it to the Coast Guard so that the data can be used to improve existing laws and programs. However that is a very different thing from investigating, assigning blame, and forcing compensation, which is what the OP needs. That is very distinctly not the function of the Coast Guard system you quote.

You may be interested to know that most safety programs are split in this manner. You can't learn much to improve safety if participants have legal peril hanging over their head, which tends to lead one to clam up. As a result, especially in aviation and at sea, there is a dual track approach to mishaps. One is the safety track, which not only avoids trying to assign legal blame but is prohibited from doing so, often with statements made privileged from use in legal proceedings. At the same time a parallel but completely separate legal track is conducted to assign blame and determine punishment and compensation. You don't want to confuse those two tracks, their separation is essential to actually being able to learn from our mistakes.

Very useful! Thank you. I’m sure I’m not the only one that was confused.

[littleships]

Get hold of the flag or registry and lay an encumbrance/Lien against it. I cannot be sold until this is satisfied.
Email the broker and ask for a read receipt informing him of the claim. Speak to his boss. Send a registered letter.

[BobMc]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

You need a lawyer, get a lien filed against the boat immediately. If you can get that done they will have to pay to close a sale on the boat.

Don't waste your time trying to figure it out on your own. Hire a maritime lawyer (there are dozens in the Miami area).

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by SVSOLITAIRE

it is now for sail under a broker.

Definitely illegal to flee the scene, and they are definitely at fault if you were at anchor and they were underway, that's called an "allision" (not a collision, which is when both boats are under way). How about contacting the yacht broker and telling him that you are going to file a maritime lien on the boat unless they pay up immediately? That might light a fire under them. And will certainly make the broker less interested in showing or selling the boat!

[StoneCrab]

It sounds like the charter and the broker is in the local area, after all, how far could he get in a few days. Why not make an appointment to see the boat at the brokerage. Go there and take pictures, get the hull number and registration info from the broker. It will save you time and money later.

I've had my boat hit several times in a mooring field. I reported the worst one to my insurance company and the harbormaster. They basically took care of everything. At the end of the season, I had the boat yard do the repairs and submit the bill to the insurance company. Having insurance made the claims process easy. It was the other boats fault, but I didn't really have to give it a second thought.

I feel for you, but I have to say that when you decide to not have insurance, you are making a decision which puts you financially at risk. In this case, which is more costly, going after the other captain and charter company or just having the repairs done? Likely you could repair it yourself for little cost.

I'd be indignant too, that they didn't take responsibility and fled. If I've learned anything as I've aged, it is that nobody cares. The courts don't care, the police don't care, the other captain doesn't care, the charter company doesn't care. It is disappointing to learn that people have such low integrity, but it is reality.

The authorities will take reports to placate you and the lawyers will happily take your money to open a case, but the burden of proof is on you. It is an uphill battle. If you want "justice" you will likely be disappointed. If you need to just make a point and assuage your indignation on principle, fire up the torches, you will be carrying that one for a long time and probably spend more than the repairs are worth in time and money. If it comes down to a "he said, she said" court battle it is unlikely that you will win, even though you filed a report.

It is a tough to decide how far to pursue this, but really one which started with the decision to not buy insurance. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but take stock of the situation and decide how you want to spend your time.

Best of luck to you.

[StoneCrab]

Originally Posted by TabbyCat

How about contacting the yacht broker and telling him that you are going to file a maritime lien on the boat unless they pay up immediately? That might light a fire under them. And will certainly make the broker less interested in showing or selling the boat!

A Lien is easily done on a Federally Documented boat but is generally intended to cover unpaid bills. Until you prove in court that you've been damaged by the other party's actions, I don't think you will have a Lien claim. Does Florida have a similar system for state registered vessels? I think the rules are different at the State level.

A Lien may not be the correct legal vehicle however. More likely a Lis Pendens would be attached to the title or documentation. See this link for further discussion of what this means. You would have to open a case in a court system to do this, however.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lis-pendens.asp

One advantage to the Lis Pendens is that it ties up the title for as long as it takes to get a result from your lawsuit. If the Charter Company moves ahead with the sale, the new buyer assumes responsibility for the lawsuit's outcome. It is a kiss of death for real property.

[argonauta1]

Yes to Snore. Surprised no-one else mentions the police. Hit and run is a criminal event whether on ground or water. Call the cops!