Charter yacht collided with me, seeking advice.

[WYQ5032]

Keep monitoring the vessel’s location and movements via AIS. A foreign flagged vessel must have cleared US Customs or would be required to fly the Q flag and no disembarking until the vessel, the skipper, crew, and passengers have been processed, so there are USCG records out there. If USCG doesn’t want to share the information with you you can try a FOIA request— can take a while but start the ball rolling and see what you get.
Attaching a maritime lien is a good idea to explore, and it follows the vessel. (Maritime lawyers, doesn’t a maritime lien survive a vessel’s sale, putting the new owner on the hook to pay for the damages as well?). If there are no good sources for information among the people you know, find someone who has some experience with maritime liens. Boat repair facilities have inchoate liens for their work, and they “perfect” them by filings. You may find some folks willing to be explain what they do, without actually advising you what you should do.
Read, ask more questions. Be relentless in pursuing your remedies.
Follow as best you can the good advice out there (I realize, the difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff). Good luck!

[reflectionsv37]

You should read up on Maritime Liens. They are different from a regular lien in that they apply to the vessel, not a person. It's all based on old maritime laws and you can place a lien against a "vessel" for all type of things including collision and a boat dragging anchor. After all, boats dragging anchor isn't a new thing!

You can even place a lien against a vessel online and I believe when a friend of mine did so, there was no charge. My friend placed a lien against a boat that dragged on him and the owner flat out refused to pay him anything.

The lien stays on the vessel until it is paid or the vessel is destroyed. The liens are kept in an international database. Marine title companies check those when there is a transfer of ownership and that is likely when you'll be able to collect any damages. They have to satisfy the lien before transfer can complete.

In my friends case, it took about 2 years but he received a email from the owner of the vessel wanting to settle the claim. Karma!!!

This might be a good place to start:

A lien is a lien is a lien but a maritime lien is not

[reflectionsv37]

From my research into my friends situation, that a vessel that is dragging anchor is not a "vessel at anchor". It is a "vessel underway" and is required to manned by personnel accordingly. If they ever try to take you to court to fight your maritime lien, they will have to show that they were not at fault, or you have some responsibility. In most collision situations there is some sort of a split, but when an "underway" vessel collides with an "anchored" vessel. You don't have to be rocket scientist or a maritime lawyer to know who is mostly at fault.

I suspect a Maritime Attorney is going to recommend you file a lien against the vessel and will probably do it for you for a highly unreasonable fee, but is certainly worth consulting with one.

Good luck! Old maritime law is on your side!!!

[dblk65]

Lots of great info in these responses...hopefully I can offer a bit of optimism. I had once skippering a fairly massive Cat on bareboat, our mooring came up in a sudden blow and in the ensuing melee we lost a prop. Sadly we ended up doing some pretty significant damage to a much smaller live aboard in the anchorage. Contrary to your situation, I and the crew did all we could too assist and stayed around to deal with authorities and information...and yes it was a months long massive headache for all, but ultimately insurance stepped in to resolve all issues. I did engage legal assistance to "coax" the insurer but it remained most reasonable. I would hope and expect that a 44Meter on charter would indeed be well insured. It would be after all an incredible liability for the owner and the charter company if it were not...and quite certainly illegal.

[sail4evr]

Contact the charter compny

[Copacabana]

I haven't read all the replies, but have you tried to contact the actual owner of the boat? If it's for sale, perhaps the broker can put you in contact with the owner. Maybe the owner will be understanding of what happened and offer to pay for your repairs. I would imagine the owner of a 4 million dollar yacht won't find the repairs too onerous.

[WYQ5032]

Originally Posted by reflectionsv37

You should read up on Maritime Liens. They are different from a regular lien in that they apply to the vessel, not a person. It's all based on old maritime laws and you can place a lien against a "vessel" for all type of things including collision and a boat dragging anchor. After all, boats dragging anchor isn't a new thing!

You can even place a lien against a vessel online and I believe when a friend of mine did so, there was no charge. My friend placed a lien against a boat that dragged on him and the owner flat out refused to pay him anything.

The lien stays on the vessel until it is paid or the vessel is destroyed. The liens are kept in an international database. Marine title companies check those when there is a transfer of ownership and that is likely when you'll be able to collect any damages. They have to satisfy the lien before transfer can complete.

In my friends case, it took about 2 years but he received a email from the owner of the vessel wanting to settle the claim. Karma!!!

This might be a good place to start:

A lien is a lien is a lien but a maritime lien is not

Good advice to read up on/learn about Maritime Liens. A fascinating area of the law, if sometimes confusing. A potent tool in protecting and enforcing one’s rights. Not so good if your vessel ends up with one. Curious, how many folks reading this thread think they have a good understanding/working knowledge of maritime liens?
Back to the books for me....

[sycheckmate]

As well as most of the above, I would contact the charter company and ask them for their insurance details. Then advise the insurance company of details and proof of the incident and follow it up with a shipyard quote to repair. I have done this with my uninsured yacht and it worked. Had to contact the directors of the Spanish Insurance Company to get any action. No lawyers or fees involved

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Update: A lot of good advice, I will try to answer as much as I can so I don’t have to clutter the post with individual replies.

Concerning the broker. I reached out to the broker the day it happened via phone. He got me in contact with the captain. Who denied fault etc. not wanting to play blame game, and wanting evidence of email I then emailed the broker. No response as of yet but I let the officer in charge know I had sent a request for the captains name and vessel’s registration.

Concerning the owner: at this point the broker is my door to the owner. Until I have a verified incident report from FWC I feel it isn’t prudent to track down the owner.

Concerning repairs: Can I do the repairs myself, yes. I have already refit solitaire once and I am a professional carpenter. The repairs don’t intimidate me. What concerns me, and what I feel like I need settlement on is the cost that those repairs and the materials involved will accrue to. I am a full time cruiser, so this would mean month (probably longer because I would have to find additional work) in dry dock handling repairs etc trying to make money to restore what would be a decimated cruising kitty. If push comes to shove I’ll do it and consider it a hard lesson learned on the value of insurance; that doesn’t mean I need to be happy about it.

Concerning insurance: I don’t carry insurance because legally I don’t need to. In the past 6 months I have spent 1 night off the hook. I specifically anchor in remote/ uncomfortable anchorages to avoid traffic. My ground tackle is specifically large to account for this. I avoid boating on the weekends and stay away from problematic areas. These are not excuses to not have insurance, I am just trying to express that I knowingly have been “self insuring” as many other cruisers do. Had this been a smaller amount of damage I would have already sailed on.

Concerning liens: I have no problem doing the leg work or seeking council to move forward with a lien process but obviously I must do more research as to what is appropriate, available to me.

Concerning lawyers: I reached out to a maritime lawyer today to schedule a consultation. I will know more after we have spoken about the details.

Concerning FWC: They were supposed to have contacted me today, as of 3:22 eastern US they have not. They have been sufficiently clear that this process takes time and I need to be patient. Given the limited resources of FWC I agree. I will check back in on Monday.


Moving forward: I am at the same anchorage, hesitant to begin any repairs until I have seen the report documented. I have been searching for my anchors and calculating fair market values for the broken materials.

I want to be clear; yes this stinks that it happened, but I have no axe to grind. Accidents happen, I am however enraged that they left the scene. That to me is worth every effort on my part to see that the captain is held accountable. Had I not been an able seaman this could have been much worse and I don’t think his response would have changed. Captains like that need to be disciplined.


Hope that clarifies everything. Again thank you all so much for the replies.

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by sycheckmate

As well as most of the above, I would contact the charter company and ask them for their insurance details. Then advise the insurance company of details and proof of the incident and follow it up with a shipyard quote to repair. I have done this with my uninsured yacht and it worked. Had to contact the directors of the Spanish Insurance Company to get any action. No lawyers or fees involved

So even though it is advertised as a charter vessel the USCG has said that it is intact recreational. Im not certain if those are mutually exclusive. That being said aside from the broker who is not being cooperative, I am unsure about how to go about tracking down the insurance company. I will call/email the broker again asking for the name of the insurance company. If anyone knows another avenue to attain that info I am all ears.

As a hurdle though won’t the insurance company want a report from FWC before they give me the time of day? I think a lot of my dominoes are depending on FWC at the moment.

[sycheckmate]

Well done on all the work you have done. I would still get a quote to have all the work done and pursue that amount. Then the decision to do it yourself is yours.
I offered to settle my claim for 50 euros. The guy told me to see his insurance company. So I did, with a quote for +$8000.00. I got paid that amount by the insurance company and did the work myself. It was mostly a bent staunchion, and small paint repair - but the lift, drop, storage and yard fees on the quote added up

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I’m hoping for a situation similar as far as ease. (Even better if it’s similar to your situation monetarily. You made out, good on you.) I have no problem paying for a proper survey and estimate I just feel like I should hold off on the survey until the report clearly indicates the faulty party.

[Manateeman]

Solitaire. Please read my post again. Your two choices are simple. One...try to be super nice...ask them to see it from your side...ask them to do the right and honorable thing and meet you half way on the out of pocket repair costs...do not threaten in any way, shape or form.
Two. Ask an attorney certified in maritime to write them and ask for binding arbitration. Ask if the firm will do this ProBono or at a reduced fee if you pick up the costs.
Again, I’ve sat through a hundred cases. My dad was a Admirality attorney and we have two non maritime attorneys in the family.
You do not have a personal injury case.
You do not have a case wherein the other party has been cited for wrongdoing.
You have a case wherein the other party has substantial resources to defend themselves. If they have insurance, their insurance will do everything not to pay.
The costs to bring litigation can reach tens of thousands of dollars.
If you loose, they can force you to pay all their attorney fees and costs.
DO NOT forget this!
I feel bad this happened to you but move on with your life if they don’t want to help. Some of the advice posted is flat out wrong in your case. It’s given from people with little expertise. Most are not even professional mariners.
There are several societies of attorneys in maritime and Tulane University teaches the subject. You might get someone there who will confirm what I have said or give you a heads up on what happens in the real world of maritime litigation.
Read through the web pages of maritime firms and you will see how severe personal injury and Jones act cases are where they spend their time and resources. Call any of the professional mariners who offer expert testimony. They advertise in Professional Mariner. Ask the minimum fees. These are the experts who will be employed against you by the opposing insurance company and if you loose, these fees will become your debt.
Maybe someone will write a letter for you asking the other side to do the decent thing. Push and they might push back. They can flip it so they look like the injured party and bring action quickly against you.
You just should think about moving on.
Manatees get run over every day. At sunset they break out the pizza and beer.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his manatee crew.

[crazyhorse]

I assuming this was at night so you didn't see the yacht dragging so able to get out of its way?. NZ looks at skipper responsibility to anchor in a safe manor but we too get boats scream into an anchorage and drop on top of us so we take a photo in case this sort of thing happens. If you were already at anchor, day shape up then any other vessel should and must anchor away from you mindful of swing room and hull type. We watch how much rode they put out too, a good indicator of level of stupidity and anchoring whilst still underway. I am afraid unless you can corroborate your version with witnesses and photos, it's all up hill mate. I would suggest lodging a formal complaint with your maritime authorities and see if they will investigate as I am sure under US law leaving the scene of a collision is illegal in itself. Good luck.

[SVSOLITAIRE]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Solitaire. Please read my post again. Your two choices are simple. One...try to be super nice...ask them to see it from your side...ask them to do the right and honorable thing and meet you half way on the out of pocket repair costs...do not threaten in any way, shape or form.

Two. Ask an attorney certified in maritime to write them and ask for binding arbitration. Ask if the firm will do this ProBono or at a reduced fee if you pick up the costs.

Again, I’ve sat through a hundred cases. My dad was a Admirality attorney and we have two non maritime attorneys in the family.

You do not have a personal injury case.

You do not have a case wherein the other party has been cited for wrongdoing.

You have a case wherein the other party has substantial resources to defend themselves. If they have insurance, their insurance will do everything not to pay.

The costs to bring litigation can reach tens of thousands of dollars.

If you loose, they can force you to pay all their attorney fees and costs.

DO NOT forget this!

I feel bad this happened to you but move on with your life if they don’t want to help. Some of the advice posted is flat out wrong in your case. It’s given from people with little expertise. Most are not even professional mariners.

There are several societies of attorneys in maritime and Tulane University teaches the subject. You might get someone there who will confirm what I have said or give you a heads up on what happens in the real world of maritime litigation.

Read through the web pages of maritime firms and you will see how severe personal injury and Jones act cases are where they spend their time and resources. Call any of the professional mariners who offer expert testimony. They advertise in Professional Mariner. Ask the minimum fees. These are the experts who will be employed against you by the opposing insurance company and if you loose, these fees will become your debt.

Maybe someone will write a letter for you asking the other side to do the decent thing. Push and they might push back. They can flip it so they look like the injured party and bring action quickly against you.

You just should think about moving on.

Manatees get run over every day. At sunset they break out the pizza and beer.

Happy trails to you.

Captain Mark and his manatee crew.

I trust your advice. I’m not trying to threaten or “play hard ball” so to speak. Wasn’t certain I gave off that impression.

Once the investigation is complete and fault is found I will contact them in a conciliatory manner and ask them to do the right thing. I understand what you are saying about these cases being difficult, but I have a seaworthy vessel and I was doing everything legally. You are just telling me that doesn’t matter because they have money for a legal team. I understand that’s the reality we live in but given that I expect fault to be found 100% on them I can’t see them bothering to muster a pricey defense when a small payment will make it go away.

Again I understand what you are saying but it would be foolish if I didn’t explore every avenue available to me. For the time being this is a moot point until FWC completes their investigation.

Thanks.