Wood Choices, types and locations....

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Michaeltouche

Thanks guys, that's very helpful... (except Terra Nova... dude if you can't contribute to the discussion, you might want to leave your condescension to yourself)

Blue: Rocky Mountain Douglas-fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca) Pseudotsuga menziesii, commonly known as Douglas fir, Douglas-fir and Oregon pine, is an evergreen conifer species native to western North America.
Cheechaco, you made me look it up, lol, I know it's locally available and we use it all the time for Structural here. So, yes looking to me like the better choice. I will avoid Home Depot's stock. We have local mill close by, I can specify CVG.

It never ceases to amaze me how a simple statement or question can be misinterpreted and cause hostile responses.

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice, and with the sole intent to help you and others.

I thought Terra Nova's first comment was spot on, helpful, accurate, and concise.i saw nothing in it that looked like condescension. When I read it, it made perfect sense to me, and I agree with his comment that Spruce has been the preferred wood for many wood boat spars.

I think your comment about him was rude and uncalled for, and counter to the "be nice" rule of CF. In fact I think an apology to Terra Nova would be a good idea to clear up misunderstandings. Calling him a troll, in a later comment was also poor response.
_________

Here is a quote from a website that could help you see it as Terra Nova and I do:

"Sitka Spruce (Silver, Tideland or Menzies Spruce) has long been the top choice for mast builders."

This site has many good tips on mast building, si I suggest you read it prior to staring your project.
Source: https://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Mast.html

Good luck on your mast build.

[Pauls]

For a comparison between douglas fir and spruce:
Douglas fir is a bit heavier than spruce.
Doug fir is also a bit stronger than spruce.
Doug fir is more rot resistant than spruce.
Doug fir is about 10 times more available than spruce.
The strength to weight ratio between douglas fir and spruce is almost identical.


Because of its higher strength you can use thinner sections of fir. The finished mast, built of fir or spruce, will weigh the same if both are engineered to the same strength.


In your situation I would use fir unquestionably. Importing an unknown wood and UNINSPECTED wood from overseas is a really bad idea in my opinion.


VERY important is using high quality wood. You want straight grain, tight spaced grain, well dried wood. Wood quality makes big difference.


The best glue for your mast is resourcinol. It is the best wood glue available, period. Epoxy is very popular, principally because you can do a lousy job of joint fitting and fill it with epoxy. Joint fitting is very simple on spar bulding. Do your homework on this, you'll find what I'm saying is accurate. I've seen many failed epoxy joints on spars.


If you're bright finishing the spar and don't like the purple resourcinol glue line I'd suggest Plastic Resin. It is an excellent wood glue.


So, find some high quality doug fir. Do a good job of jointing. Use a first rate glue. And seal all penetrations of the wood for fastenings really well.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Pauls

For a comparison between douglas fir and spruce:
Douglas fir is a bit heavier than spruce.
Doug fir is also a bit stronger than spruce.
Doug fir is more rot resistant than spruce.
Doug fir is about 10 times more available than spruce.
The strength to weight ratio between douglas fir and spruce is almost identical...

And
.....Doug fir splits relatively easy.

That is why it is not preferred for spars.

[Michaeltouche]

Steadman. I came here for a discussion, not someone bleating out blind obedience. He offered no rebuttal for his statement and gave no reasons for using the material other than most sailors use it. and I was offended that he would treat me as some simpleton.
Now, on the other hand, you came in and offered a link that was very useful. But I'm also hearing that spruce rots, as evidence in my boom. Cedar doesn't. Douglas Fir splits (thanks Terra Nova) and ya, don't want it splitting.... and don't want rot. reality is, all woods will probably have some deficiency in some areas.
i'd like to know how if anyone has some historical background on longevity of Cedar. or more specifically Port Orford cedar. which I found a source.

[Pelagic]

In 2016, during refit, I replaced large sections of my 33 year old Douglas Fir masts


In general the box structure was in very good shape, but had seen wear and tear at the bases and spreaders, or where standing rigging had changed


Specific problem was at the spreader section where the wood at the pin and clamp points had been sanded down too much over the years and the clamp system was no longer equally sharing the load, causing movement and elongation at the pins


Stripped down to bare wood I was very happy with the condition of the 33 year Douglas Fir and then via research with various wooden mast forums, I found out, i should specify "Architectural Grade" Dry kilnned, straight, tight grain and cross cut lumber.

I found that I needed to contact the head buyers of the large retail lumber suppliers in BC and Washington to source and reserve the best lumber in 13" wide x 9-12ft long pieces for scarfing where needed.

As these knowledgeable head buyers were sourcing from a variety of wholesale distributors, they knew what would be comming available

As I was shipping lumber to Subic Philippines, the wood needed to be well documented in order to get pre-quarantine clearance before air freight.

The new wood scarfed in is now back to original thickness, allowing clamp system to evenly share the loads around the box structure.

If DF is readily available where you are, I would not hesitate using the proper quality DF, as Paul's excellent post advises

[roland stockham]

I suggest that the quality is more important than the species. Any of the straight grain lightweight firs will make a mast, some being a bit more durable or harder wearing. But the big difference is the quality. You want a slow growing forest tree with narrow ring spacing and few knots. Forest grown trees generally have less branches on the lover section so you get more clear wood and if they grow in a cooler climate (either higher latitudes or higher altitude) they grow more slowly so rings are tighter and there is more dense winter ring than soft summer growth. Most of this you can tell by a careful inspection. If you can find a good timber supplier that understands about marine wood quality and use that is ideal. If not look for grade 'A' construction timber from someone who will let you choose the best lengths. The 'ideal' species depends on the rig. For example the west coast fishing smack in the UK favored spruce for their gaff rigged boats with a large topsail that had limited support because it was nice and flexible as well as light. A fully stayed bermuda rig may do better with cedar because it is stiffer and might stay in column better. On the down side it is heavier and more expensive (also makes wonderful oars!)

[Len hornick]

Alaskan Yellow Cedar .... Strong,rot resistant ,readily available ,Glues well..

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

...I thought Terra Nova's first comment was spot on, helpful, accurate, and concise.i saw nothing in it that looked like condescension...

Thank you for your kind comments.

I think the OP is probably very young and inexperienced, and so simply doesn't know any better.

[zeehag]

iff chinese wood was used it was not got from china. ditto stainless and other materials.
i was told by a wood alleged guru that it is thai cedar.
i have seen doug fir masts of various constructions. age well. flexistrong. not bad. not rotty like spruce i have seen of same ages.

[Siberian Sea]

Sitka Spruce was a top choice for wooden spars because as the tree grows it also slowly will twist. This twist gave the wood a lot of strength. I’m from Southeast Alaska and Sitka Spruce is very common so much so I built my house out of it. I milled the wood from logs and i can indeed contest to the fact that the grain has twist and it’s very very strong. It would be my first choice followed by Douglas Fir.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Michaeltouche

Zeehag, you keep mentioning Thai Cedar, where do you get this information about species. There is no mention of the wood through a google search. Jimbunyard mentioned it probably being Chinese cedar, cupressaceae cunninghamia. which I looked up, native to China then spilling down into Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia... and possibly into Thailand... is it this species. I can see why they would use it considering it grow to 160' long straight.... Thanks Ken z Ya, it's a toss up of Sitka and Doug Fir, but then I hear how spruce rots (thanks Zeehag) and my main boom has a rot spot... so conflicted... hahaha I just haven't heard any reason to go through the added effort to get Sitka... which I have found (just not locally) and a mizzen needs only needing 8ea 8 footers not a huge blow to pocket compared to other needs on the boat.

some wood guru in barra told me is thai cedar. isnot spruce i know that and is not fir. cedar from thailand makes sense whatever the origins.

spruce goose didnt nor does it sit out in weather 24/7/365. it has been protected. anything woill last forever when protected from air and weather;. get real. spruce goose is not a reasonable comparison. airplane wings mebbe, but not spruce goose.

for my mizzenboom i used perota aka huanacaxtle. is canopy tree of mexico. absolutely gorgeous. mine had ROT, as opposed to rot.

[Dougtiff]

Being a Shipwright, and having built a number of masts and booms, both solid and birds mouth technique for a mast, for a boat your size, i would use D.F. for the mast and boom, more rot resistance than spruce for sure, about the boom, solid is the way to go, because you want the weight, as far as repairing an existing mast or boom, scarfing in new timber of a different type, I.E. , D.F. to spruce, or vice versa, it works fine, i recall year's ago, repairing a mast on a large Ketch, with rot in the way of the spreaders, building a platform around the mast about 40 ft. above the deck, and cutting out a section on one side, scarfing in a piece, then around to the other side, and doing the same, and on and on, scarfing in about 8 or 12 section's, fun job, work fine, still sailing today.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

It never ceases to amaze me how a simple statement or question can be misinterpreted and cause hostile responses.

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice, and with the sole intent to help you and others.

I thought Terra Nova's first comment was spot on, helpful, accurate, and concise.i saw nothing in it that looked like condescension. When I read it, it made perfect sense to me, and I agree with his comment that Spruce has been the preferred wood for many wood boat spars.

I think your comment about him was rude and uncalled for, and counter to the "be nice" rule of CF. In fact I think an apology to Terra Nova would be a good idea to clear up misunderstandings. Calling him a troll, in a later comment was also poor response.
_________

Here is a quote from a website that could help you see it as Terra Nova and I do:

"Sitka Spruce (Silver, Tideland or Menzies Spruce) has long been the top choice for mast builders."

This site has many good tips on mast building, si I suggest you read it prior to staring your project.
Source: https://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Mast.html

Good luck on your mast build.

although you are not using tone of voice, considering we are not speaking, there is one GLARING reality that you have not considered.

i have experience with this. you do not. nor does terranova.

michael wants to know about the kind of boat i have and have been researching for book production.
i also OWN one of these formosa boat builder products. granted 10 ft smaller, but still same boat. same product of same materials created in same yard.
i have owned my formosa boat builder product since 2009, and possessed it since 2008 with rendering care to it since 2005, so i could not possibly know anything about these boats. i own yahell err yahoo formosa owners group and i own formosa owners group facebook. lots of resources. much information.

in general, interruption of a marque specific thread by counterproductive non owners and nonbuilders has been just that, counterproductive. tone of alleged voice doesnot matter.

as i have stated, these boats donot do well with hollow box spruce. they do well with the cedar of which mine is constructed, allegedly from thailand.
it is not spruce. the only formosa ct etc products with spruce masts were those delivered to usa on ships.
all the similar boats to ours having spruce masts have shown rot at bases and intermittently the entire length on some, merely 6 inches of bases of the others, even after only 20 years. these thai cedar ones are 45 and 43 years in age with no sign of rot unless broken in hurricane, as was mine, which was perfect before patty baby slammed us.
there were mast and boom issues in yahoo group addressed by scarfing in lengths of doug fir.
i made a perfectly good mizzenboom of perota, aka huanacaxtle wood.
i coulda used fir for much more dough.
i coulda used spruce if i wanted rot within 20 yrs. hahahahaha or 10. AND for even MORE dough.

seems the longest lasting replacement so far has been doug fir.

enjoy your day. is a 3 day weekend. time for east coast boating season to open, just one day before their cane season begins. will be fun to watch. time to remember war dead.
michael, an even greater issue is the magical slab on which the mizzen sits.. more of this is in another issue of formosa owners group.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by zeehag

...i have experience with this. you do not. nor does terranova...

Unfortunately you are sadly misinformed and your claim false.

I have been a shipwright and boat builder for over 40 years, have built and repaired wooden spars, and done repairs and refits on many yachts, including Asian-built.

Perhaps you were once a general contractor?

[CarinaPDX]

Historically spruce was used for spars - and for good reasons. But we are not living a century ago. Today's owners can't afford professional crews to varnish the mast a couple of times a year, so water intrusion and consequent rot is a far more common problem - and those of us that have been around awhile have seen many examples of rotten spars. The other advantages of spruce do not, IMHO, offset the disadvantage of susceptibility to rot, particularly on an owner-maintained boat

Doug Fir is a great solution as it is strong and rot resistant, and has a history of use for spars. When I arrived in Crosshaven, Ireland I had a bit of rot under the (badly designed) krantz iron and had to replace the bowsprit. The surveyor had supervised the yard at the time that they built great yachts of wood, and clearly knew his stuff. He was quite insistent that the best wood to use was old growth Oregon Pine (i.e. Doug Fir). Before adding the rigging a yard worker demonstrated how robust the DF was by pulling the end off to the side - bending the sprit. As I was on the boat, up in sticks, this didn't seem like a good idea but he made his point.

Do not use epoxy!!! There is a long history of tropical heat resulting in delaminations. Historically the first choice was resorcinol; it is a very good glue but requires care (and the right climatic conditions) for application. OTOH Weldwood powdered resin glue is very effective, and forgiving in application - I have helped glue a mast with it, as well as using it in constructing Carina.

Greg