Will wax "stick" to chalky/oxidized FRP?

[JPA Cate]

Hello, Phyrcooler,

Why don't you hire the guys to use Poly Glow or TSRW on the boat? It is what we used to use on old gelcoat, is not hard at all to apply -- it used to take Jim about 1/2 day to do it all, in the slip, and it stayed looking good for about a year, in a tropical area. Your wax will be gone in 3 months, maybe only one month. We would do it at haulout time. It is not too expensive to buy, and it made a big difference in appearance, plus you don't open the little gelcoat bubbles to trap more dirt. It won't be as much $$ for your guys, though, so they might try and talk you out of it. I have no connection with either company.

Ann

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by PaintedKite

Quick question: we want to detail our 37' sloop above the waterline. One quote is $1000, and another quote is $1800. The difference is whether the surfaces get "compounded".

The $1000 quote gets us a wash/scrub and a wax, with some various other treatments (stainless, eisenglass, etc). The $1800 guys says, "Nope, you've got to remove the oxidation, or the wax won't stick." So he wants to buff/compound the smooth areas between cleaning and waxing.

Condition of surfaces: overall very good! It's a late-model boat. But it's been in FL for 10 months now. When you rub your hand over the surface, you get a white, chalky hand. Not a lot, but still...

I don't want to pay extra for the buffing if it's not needed. On the other hand, I don't want to pay the cheaper price for a waxing that proves to be ineffective.

So the question is, "Will wax stick to a clean but oxidized surface?"

Oh Wow! $1800 for a wax job?

This is why I live in Mexico. I can get a wash, scrub, and wax on my 43' boat for $60 (I supply the product). The wash includes first a wipe down with vinegar to remove water stains (our water is pretty hard here). Two guys and a supervisor and they do it in one day. Another $40 gets all the stainless (a third guy). For $100 they clean the bottom and wax the topsides and Judy does the stainless.

If I had to pay $1800 or even $1000 I'd do it myself. I can do it in two days, but it's hot here. I don't like to do it. (Judy does do the stainless, it's therapeutic she says)

But waxing over oxidized surface? No Way! It needs to be removed with a liquid or light rubbing compound first (I won't permit that to touch my Awlgrip. I will permit a "cleaner/wax" which does not harm the paint and does remove oxidation.)

Does wax protect the gelcoat (of course I don't have gel coat, so what do I know?).

I found this quotation on the internet:

A coat of boat wax helps prevent fiberglass gelcoat from oxidizing. It provides a protective layer that stops water and air from coming into contact with the gelcoat and causing oxidation.

Now Ann's comment down thread about Poly Glow caught my eye. I may try to get some of that and try it. My wax jobs ($60) last about four months in Mexican hot sun.

I can't believe there are people who or will pay $1800 for a wax job. I just ordered a new asymmetrical spinnaker for $1200. I bought a whole car in mint condition and 46,000 miles for $5000 (uh, that was Ohio).

Geez!

BTW, for Painted Kite, the compound or polish is rubbed (might be machine). The wax is buffed, usually with a circular buffer.

[Popcorn]

I do agree with most reply's. However most of the time it is boater preference. I always washed and waxed through out 20 years of owning the same boat, so it wasn't someone else's hand me down. I was responsible for its condition. A 42' sailboat is what I have and found it had deteriorated to the point of not taking a wax shine at all.
After contacting a vendor to at least look at it, he said that it may not even, after compounding it, come out to shine at all. Soo, we agreed to test an area very oxidized, to see if he could bring it up. It worked to my satisfaction. Our price stayed the same as quoted and two gents went to work. After two days, just on one side, he called me and said that it was taking longer than expected due to its condition.
I agreed to up the price a couple of hundred, now to $1,300. When finished he pictured me a finished product, and found it very acceptable. I live six hours away. Also he flipped the boat around to do the work on the dock side, which was included in the price.
In addition he offered to treat the topside teak for just a few more hundred dollars.
This type of professionalism is what you want to look for. Remember, that they do not want any negativism spread around the docks to ruin repeated work. Sailors and dock folks are a very connected community.
So with a professional company to work with, their knowledge and experience is more than worth it, and dollars you spend is what you will get, and that is worth it.

[RSB333]

I use Poly-Glow - a synthetic polymer finish. No Compounding, just the cleaning with its special prep cleaner, then mop on the " wax". Takes me about four hours for my 1984 Pearson 34. Great shine without wearing through the gel coat. At $80/hr, plus materials, this job should only cost $500.
RSB333

[BillKny]

I know (but don't have "documentation") that waxing makes a huge difference in how easy it is to keep our boat clean. If the wax is fresh and I catch a fish, the blood and guts rinse easily off the fiberglass deck, even dried blood. Without wax, it's a lot of scrubbing. Other kinds of dirt and bird crap rinse off easily instead of needing scrubbing. That--alone--is worth the effort for us to wax the boat. We like a clean boat because it is our home and we live there and the overall effort to keep it clean is reduced when it is waxed.

I can not supply hard and documented information on if this helps lengthen the survival of the gelcoat, but my ANECDOTAL observations on boats from the same manufacturer of the same age that have been regularly waxed have gelcoat in better condition than those that have not been. That MIGHT be because wax helps, or it MIGHT be because they are better cared for in general. The trend however, encourages us to keep our boat waxed, but also to just take care of it in general.

I do KNOW (and as a scientist I know that that word means...) that wax is VERY protective of anodized aluminum. I know this because we have an arch that is made of anodized aluminum. My partner waxes it twice a year. After 4 years, we can see on the aluminum surface exactly how far she can reach when she waxes. Where wax is applied 2x per year the anodizing is as new. Outside of her reach it is pitted and oxidized. Kind of the perfect experiment, albeit an unintentional one. You might, or might not, feel that this is documented well enough to believe.

We see the same protective effect on our stainless surfaces, although it is less dramatic. Unwaxed they "rouge," when waxed they stay unblemished. I understand that protecting an anodized or stainless surface doesn't prove that it also protects gelcoat, but it is certainly encouraging.

I would point out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Nobody has done, or ever will do, a 20 year study of gelcoat aging in waxed and unwaxed states. Arguing that not being able to prove by a rigorous study that wax helps with gelcoat aging somehow shows that it does not help is disingenuous. You can BELIEVE that it is not helpful, but you have no better basis for that belief than someone who believes that it does.

[PaintedKite]

Many thanks, everyone. Lots of good info and compelling perspectives here. I may try the PolyGlow someday but will start on a smaller scale.

For this current challenge, i'll go the old-fashioned way: wash/clean, compound, wax, buff. That seems to be the conventional wisdom, and I don't have any justification to overturn the conventional approach.

Next thing I'll ask is this: once we've done this major "reset", what's the best periodic practice to maintain it? I sure as hell don't intend to spend $1800 on a regular basis.

I don't mind doing the lighter, intermediate cleanings/shinings myself. So ... should I buy a buffer?? Recommendations??

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello, Phyrcooler,

Why don't you hire the guys to use Poly Glow or TSRW on the boat? It is what we used to use on old gelcoat, is not hard at all to apply -- it used to take Jim about 1/2 day to do it all, in the slip, and it stayed looking good for about a year, in a tropical area. Your wax will be gone in 3 months, maybe only one month. We would do it at haulout time. It is not too expensive to buy, and it made a big difference in appearance, plus you don't open the little gelcoat bubbles to trap more dirt. It won't be as much $$ for your guys, though, so they might try and talk you out of it. I have no connection with either company.

Ann

Thanks Ann. Yes, I have included it in the products I’m currently researching. Some mixed noise on the Internet regarding Poly Glow though, so trying to cull through it. I over research as a (bad?) habbit!

[toda]

Originally Posted by PaintedKite

Quick question: we want to detail our 37' sloop above the waterline. One quote is $1000, and another quote is $1800. The difference is whether the surfaces get "compounded".

The $1000 quote gets us a wash/scrub and a wax, with some various other treatments (stainless, eisenglass, etc). The $1800 guys says, "Nope, you've got to remove the oxidation, or the wax won't stick." So he wants to buff/compound the smooth areas between cleaning and waxing.

Condition of surfaces: overall very good! It's a late-model boat. But it's been in FL for 10 months now. When you rub your hand over the surface, you get a white, chalky hand. Not a lot, but still...

I don't want to pay extra for the buffing if it's not needed. On the other hand, I don't want to pay the cheaper price for a waxing that proves to be ineffective.

So the question is, "Will wax stick to a clean but oxidized surface?"

It interests me that in all of the posts replying to this I see no mention of an alternative to wax. I stopped waxing my boat 7 years ago. I now use a product called Permanon. It is an aqeus solution of nano-particles of silica which bond the the surface they are applied to with an ionic bond. The surface of most everything has a negative ionic charge. Dirt and dust have a positive ionic charge (as does wax). When we apply wax, (which will oxydize almost instantly when exposed to UV or temperatures in excess of 80° F) the negative ionic charge increases so the surface actually becomes a magnet for everything. To apply Permanon, one first does a DEEP cleaning, which involves removing old oxydation and thoroughly dewaxing, and buffing the surface to the desired level of shine. Then one applies a high pH cleaner (I use a concentrated solution of Simple Green Aircraft Extreme mixed with TSP to achieve a pH of about 12.5). Wash the surface and allow it to sit for a few minutes, but not long enough to dry. The i rinse with distilled water (using a spray bottle and microfibre rags) and dry the surface thoroughly to remove all water that might have left positively charged ions on the surface. Then I mist the surface with Permanon 2% with a pressure sprayer, let it stand for a minute and wipe it dry. The nano particles of silica bond ionically to the surface, leaving it with a positive ionic charge which is inert. The only thing that removes it is abrasion. Water beads on it as if it were waxed (water has a positive charge as does dust and dirt). The positivity of the silica actually repells stuff you don't want. If one visualizes the surface of everything from a microscopic perspective, the shiny surfaces actually look like mountain ranges (the shinier it looks, the smaller the peaks), but all surfaces are actually "rough" and the nano particles "fill" the valleys, and are held there by the charge. The partlcles on the peaks wear off with contact and abrasion... If one does a mild cleaning (with a lower pH cleaner) when the surface starts to lose its repellent properties, and then reapplies a coat of Permanon, one can avoid the deep cleaning process. Another plus is that Permanon can go on EVERYTHING... bright work, stainless, stamoid dodger/bimini... it is inert so harms nothing. When I'm ready touch up varnish or cetol, a quick sanding removes any residual silica and the coating of whatever sticks perfectly. Boat yards are not much interested in this because waxing and buffing are their meat and potatoes revenue. This stuff is a DIY dream... It is environmentally benign. And it seals surfaces from oxydation even in baking sun. Takes a bit of time and attention to detail when it comes to the deep cleanings, but I find I get a year or two between them for all but the high-wear spots. https://www.permanonfinishes.com

[CaptainMarkS]

We had chalky FRP that we managed to restore using acrylic coating. Check out CruisersForum posts on Poli Glow, the marine version of Zep "Wet Look", which one can purchase for a fraction of the cost of Poli Glow in hardware stores.

We've applied Zep on our 10 year old topsides and one or two hulls (to compare with wax). It holds up much better above the waterline and on topsides. Haven't needed to wax surfaces in the half a year since applying. One must be really careful to apply on completely clean surfaces, or else the product will "seal" in stains. Another benefit is that bird droppings stain less and are easier to remove. Lastly, if you don't like it, it's easy to remove with a Zep ammonia based cleaner.

Bottom line: the reviews are mixed, though it's a solution worth considering.

See:

https://myquantumdiscovery.com/new-l...t-really-works

https://www.practical-sailor.com/boa...s-last-longest

Other alternatives I will experiment with include:

- 511 Tile Sealer: https://amzn.to/3jXMMnf
- Big White hull conditioner: https://www.americandetailvictoria.c...itioner-gallon

Good luck and let us know how you get along.

[siamese]

Originally Posted by toda

It interests me that in all of the posts replying to this I see no mention of an alternative to wax. I stopped waxing my boat 7 years ago. I now use a product called Permanon. It is an aqeus solution of nano-particles of silica which bond the the surface they are applied to with an ionic bond. The surface of most everything has a negative ionic charge. Dirt and dust have a positive ionic charge (as does wax). When we apply wax, (which will oxydize almost instantly when exposed to UV or temperatures in excess of 80° F) the negative ionic charge increases so the surface actually becomes a magnet for everything. To apply Permanon, one first does a DEEP cleaning, which involves removing old oxydation and thoroughly dewaxing, and buffing the surface to the desired level of shine. Then one applies a high pH cleaner (I use a concentrated solution of Simple Green Aircraft Extreme mixed with TSP to achieve a pH of about 12.5). Wash the surface and allow it to sit for a few minutes, but not long enough to dry. The i rinse with distilled water (using a spray bottle and microfibre rags) and dry the surface thoroughly to remove all water that might have left positively charged ions on the surface. Then I mist the surface with Permanon 2% with a pressure sprayer, let it stand for a minute and wipe it dry. The nano particles of silica bond ionically to the surface, leaving it with a positive ionic charge which is inert. The only thing that removes it is abrasion. Water beads on it as if it were waxed (water has a positive charge as does dust and dirt). The positivity of the silica actually repells stuff you don't want. If one visualizes the surface of everything from a microscopic perspective, the shiny surfaces actually look like mountain ranges (the shinier it looks, the smaller the peaks), but all surfaces are actually "rough" and the nano particles "fill" the valleys, and are held there by the charge. The partlcles on the peaks wear off with contact and abrasion... If one does a mild cleaning (with a lower pH cleaner) when the surface starts to lose its repellent properties, and then reapplies a coat of Permanon, one can avoid the deep cleaning process. Another plus is that Permanon can go on EVERYTHING... bright work, stainless, stamoid dodger/bimini... it is inert so harms nothing. When I'm ready touch up varnish or cetol, a quick sanding removes any residual silica and the coating of whatever sticks perfectly. Boat yards are not much interested in this because waxing and buffing are their meat and potatoes revenue. This stuff is a DIY dream... It is environmentally benign. And it seals surfaces from oxydation even in baking sun. Takes a bit of time and attention to detail when it comes to the deep cleanings, but I find I get a year or two between them for all but the high-wear spots. https://www.permanonfinishes.com

I almost read this. Ouch. Needs paragraphs.

[dadster3]

$1000 is probably reasonable, especially if he is throwing in some other benefits. I'm getting mine done now for about $875 to wash, compound and wax the hull, and doesn't include the stainless or anything on deck.

[SuW]

I too have used acrylic finishes (PoliGlow, NewGlass2, Pledge floor polish) and they all give a very good result. Shine lasts a year or two, but you can just recoat as it appears to blend in with the old coating.

I've used them on many boats (canoes, small sailboats, rowing shells) with impressive results.

Wash the boat thoroughly with detergent. Leave to dry.
Apply the product on a cloth or sponge to coat the boat evenly.
Leave it to dry.
Done.

One advantage over actual wax - to remove the product, use ammonia. Then if you decide to paint the boat later, it's not a PITA to get all the wax off.

It does well on floors too

[blazing928]

We have a Jeanneau with that grey/beige hull colour.
It wasn’t well looked after, polishing wise when we purchased 4 years ago, 2011 boat.

On the top surfaces, that gel cost is unrestorable.
3m heavy cut will give it a shine, but look closely and I can see what looks like white craters under the shine.

Nanomans ‘nano’ polish will keep a slight shine over a year, fat outperformed 3m or other stuff, but it still degraded.

Experts, have said the hull sides gel coat is too damaged to restore to original, it will shine, but it’s never a deep rich colour. In protected areas it’s quite a different colour and shines beautifully.

I’m into car detailing and have used Permanon- mentioned above, Gtecniq that now does a marine range as well. I find the nano type products well outlast waxes etc , but they seal what ever is underneath.

I’d like to try a ceramic coating, but I’m concerned it won’t have enough UV protection to stop the gel coat deterioration under the almost impossible to remove ceramic top coat. Then I’m really screwed!

I also find 3m by far the easiest compound and wax to use.

Our only solution would be to paint the hull with Awlgrip or similar. It’s interesting to see superyachts being painted as the gel coat finishes just don’t last regardless of who keeps them shiny.

[Dave9111]

$1800 to wash, buff and wax a boat???

That's crazy money!

I suggest you wait until you get to the boat (if you don't, then why do you care if it is shiny or not??) and clean it!

A really good buffer is no more than $200. So you have $1600 left to spend on other things.

OR.... you could adapt a different theory.... the oxidized gel coat is protecting the underlying shiny gel coat.. If you remove it, you will expose your shiny gel coat and have to wax it and it will just again form a protective oxide barrier!!!! So don't fight nature....embrace the protective oxide coating!

If you simply have excess money, I can provide my mailing address and take it off your hands!

You're welcome!

[merrydolphin]

WOW $1800! I just had a guy wash compound and wax my 38 foot diesel pusher motorhome. Cost me $300! Great job. And probably harder to do that the boat. I know, I have done boat and motorhomes several times myself. Old enough now to let someone else do it but wow, that price. My motorhome had green streaks coming down the side that was away from the sun. Parts of the roof area was nearly black. But you can get what ever someone is willing to pay for it. Maybe I am just that out of touch.
When I was in the Sea of Cortez Mexico $ 150. Including the stainless. In Trinidad, I could hire an excellent bright work refinished for $30 / day! Yeah, those days are gone. But $1800? Wow.