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ScottMeilicke · 12-05-2020, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

Has anyone used this on rebedding handrails?

We have Rod Collins' (Mainesails) butyl and love it, but we only use it in bolted applications where the cone-collar on the fastener doesn't move (see his tutorial on rebedding), so am concerned for the extended twist, even if I COULD manage to get them all down to that level at the same time without disturbing its position (1.5" penetration on either 3 or 5 screws).

Screws then, not bolts? My guess is you would still be OK. The butyl tape has a tendency to continue oozing and flowing after being compressed by the fastener, which may help to set/seal after you stop twisting the screw. Can you still counter sink in this application to get a little more butyl to block water ingress?

skipgundlach · 13-05-2020, 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke

Screws then, not bolts? My guess is you would still be OK. The butyl tape has a tendency to continue oozing and flowing after being compressed by the fastener, which may help to set/seal after you stop twisting the screw. Can you still counter sink in this application to get a little more butyl to block water ingress?

Yes. I currently have a bare deck; I used a 3/8" forstner bit to remove prior softer wood (the deck is cored with 3/4" marine plywood) around the screw holes and drove hardwood dowels into those holes, using Titebond III (waterproof glue) for adhesion. I'm happy with the result of my having carefully chiseled them to the deck level after cutting them nearly flush with my Fein.

My prep for new installation will be to place the rail where I want it, have the admiral exert force downward to prevent movement, drill through the already-holed rail with the right sized bit to assure ease of screwing it down without compromising the grip of the teeth, and once done to the correct depth, use a countersink bit to chamfer the 45° edges of the hole to at least 3/8" (#14 phillips panhead screws). After securing that first point, I'd then start a screw (to prevent any possible movement) and rinse/repeat for the others in the rail, each time removing the set screws (just a quarter turn, to engage the screw to act as a post, preventing the rail from moving while I do the others; I think prolly I'd do the ends first, then the middle/s, with the middles done before lifting to chamfer)...

I'm about to rebed, and have a question in to Rod Collins regarding suitability of using the tape in that application. As it spooges over time due to compression, the norm is to tighten more than once, separated by a day or more, to allow that compression; it's there that I'm more concerned....

jhulmer · 13-05-2020, 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloroxbottle

A word of caution, you may want to look up the last two or three episodes of Sailing Sartori on YouTube. They appear to have a very similar chain plate design to what I see protruding from your deck. They recently had a chain plate fail underway (it snapped off at deck level).

When they made it to port and pulled the remaining lowers all needed to be replaced and all the corrosion and cracking was found in the chain plate where it passed through the deck where you could not see it. What was visible above and below looked ok.

They used butyl tape to seal the covers, but speculated that this did not do enough to seal the actual deck-chainplate joint.

Of course that may be the way it was applied, I’m no butyl tape sculptor myself. Just something to watch out for.

I watched those episodes and my conclusion is that he applied the butyl only a couple years before. The corrosion I was seeing happened over a longer period. I think the butyl is a good choice for this application.
Jim

**a64pilot** · 13-05-2020, 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloroxbottle

A word of caution, you may want to look up the last two or three episodes of Sailing Sartori on YouTube. They appear to have a very similar chain plate design to what I see protruding from your deck. They recently had a chain plate fail underway (it snapped off at deck level).

When they made it to port and pulled the remaining lowers all needed to be replaced and all the corrosion and cracking was found in the chain plate where it passed through the deck where you could not see it. What was visible above and below looked ok.

They used butyl tape to seal the covers, but speculated that this did not do enough to seal the actual deck-chainplate joint.

Of course that may be the way it was applied, I’m no butyl tape sculptor myself. Just something to watch out for.

As someone who has internal chainplates I researched them and the corrosion issue pretty well, it seems that if you have ever had even a small leak that the salt that gets in combined with atmospheric moisture is enough to set up a cell and cause or continue corrosion. I took that to mean that corrosion in encapsulated chain plates if made from a material that can corrode is going to happen, your not realistically going to stop it, at best maybe slow it some.
However as I posted there are better products than butyl for this purpose that have a better seal and are more flexible, but accept that SS encapsulated chain plates are going to corrode and ought to be replaced at some interval before they fail and possibly with a material that is either less likely to corrode or immune to corrosion.
Cause they are going to corrode, and eventually fail.

SV__Grace · 13-05-2020, 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

I'm about to rebed, and have a question in to Rod Collins regarding suitability of using the tape in that application. As it spooges over time due to compression, the norm is to tighten more than once, separated by a day or more, to allow that compression; it's there that I'm more concerned....

Over the years I've developed a routine with butyl tape-

- Prep surfaces well, all previous gunk removed, finish with acetone

- Remove strips to size with paper still attached and apply

- Fill any uneven spots with additional butyl by doubling up, rolling, etc.

- Add additional strips to any angled mating areas such as the chainplate/deck cover slot

- apply a small amount of butyl near the head of each screw or bolt.

- When satisfied with your application of butyl, remove the paper strips, mate the cover, hatch, window, deck fitting to it's surface and press firmly

- Start your screws/bolts to hold the fitting in place

- Use a heat gun to soften the butyl to soft goo consistency. This seems to enhance stickiness and adhesion over cold installations.

- Apply more pressure

- Start tightening screws or bolts evenly in cross pattern, take your time and tighten just a bit at a time until fully seated. If this were Sikaflex or similar you wouldn't tighten all the way- you would want it to set then tighten to get the best seal. Not so with butyl.

- Let it sit for a day or two and tighten screws/bolts again, you'll find they usually have more to go.

- Final clean up- use an exacto knife to slice a groove on the protruding edges (does not need to go all the way through) and pull away the excess butyl. Best way to clean up bits of butyl, as well as remove butyl when rebedding, is to dab with a wad of butyl. Butyl is wonderfully sticky and sticks best to itself!

Seems like a lot of steps and instructions but I've found working with butyl to be much easier, cleaner, and faster than using goop.

I'm not a pro, but as a boat owner for more than 35 years butyl has become my go-to for bedding hatches, windows, and deck fittings and it amazes me to be able to report that when I follow the above steps it has never leaked. Never. The exception is uneven areas where not enough was applied, so the lesson there is to be generous in applying the butyl knowing that it's cheap and cleans up easily.

philiosophy · 23-05-2020, 03:14

Useing Butilized Rubber is a bad move. None of the Pro's use it. It also leaves a hard to clean up mess once you have used it. Sikaflex or any simular product that alows the Stainless to breath a bit is what to use. I have tried Butilized rubber on a number of things and have concluded it just has no place what so ever on a sailboat.

**skipmac** · 23-05-2020, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by philiosophy

Useing Butilized Rubber is a bad move. None of the Pro's use it. It also leaves a hard to clean up mess once you have used it. Sikaflex or any simular product that alows the Stainless to breath a bit is what to use. I have tried Butilized rubber on a number of things and have concluded it just has no place what so ever on a sailboat.

Actually many marine professionals use butyl tape and endorse it strongly. Having used various grades of Sikaflex I don't recall any that appeared to be noticeably permeable to air or oxygen.

Captn_Black · 23-05-2020, 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by roverhi

The beauty of butyl is its elastic nature that allows it to move with the hardware without losing its seal. To me the ideal sealant for chain plates.

I opt for a marine sealant, like 3M 3200, rather than an adhesive like 3M 4200, for the same reason - the interior stays uncured so never cracks or allows ingress of air/water.

Davidhoy · 23-05-2020, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipmac

Actually many marine professionals use butyl tape and endorse it strongly. Having used various grades of Sikaflex I don't recall any that appeared to be noticeably permeable to air or oxygen.

I wanted to respond too, but could not find words as kind as yours. If you can't say something nice, just keep quiet ;-)

sailcrazy · 23-05-2020, 06:53

skipmac-that's a pretty strong opinion and reply...without ANY real alternative offered(sikoflex has a habit of hardening, and then cracking when moved) or reason why NOT to use it. Details please...if you have ANY. But that's just my opinion....after using the stuff for 6+ years, and having sikoflex-and the resultant leak-in that joint before.