Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas

[David_Old_Jersey]

Inspired by the great Cruising on $500 a month thread I thought might be useful for a new thread (specific - yet still general ) on the subject of refurbing / refitting an older boat with an aim for extended cruising (likely on a smaller budget), but that not an absolute requirement .

Although I am kinda relaxed about this thread wandering around on subject matter, broadly speaking the topic is older and cheaper (to buy) boats......... as my take is that folk who go down the boat refurb route generally do so for financial reasons (like not having the $$$ in the bank from the getgo )............not to say that other reasons are not involved (learning the boat backwards / making sure she is 110% sound / putting maintanence in the bank to reduce future cruising costs / simply enjoying fiddling around on board for a few years ).

On that latter point, although most boats (that still fall within the term "refurb" rather than "resurrection" ) probably could be sorted out within 3 - 6 months of full time work, I suspect that most would be a multi year project simply because of the need to work to fund the project!



To kick off I would suggest:-

a) That much consideration be given (pre-boat purchase) to deciding what you will really use the boat for - and then divide that into the "likely" and "would like to" (i.e. sailing around the carribean and adjacent continents (likely) and sailing RTW (would like to) etc etc)........and buy and then refurb the boat accordingly. The idea being not to buy and then over refurb / equip ($$$) for a voyage that may never happen, but nonetheless still not excluding the possibility (by say, removing all the bulkheads to fit a Jacuzzi inside ).

b) Again pre-boat purchase, take a long hard look at yourself and decide whether you are the sort of person to tackle a project that involves getting hands on for (likely) a number of years. As a broad rule of thumb - if your skills amount to once seeing someone put up a shelf on The Discovery Channel, then probably not . On the other hand, if you are already not afraid of a toolbox (of any sort) and enjoy getting hands on, then probably a fair chance of doing OK (all other things being equal - which they rarely are ).....the specific skills involved with boats are not that complicated (exceptions apply ), it's mostly about learning what needs doing and how to tackle the job(s).....and for that there is the Internet as well as real life.

What breaks refurb projects, empties bank accounts and turns owners into gibbering (divorced?!) E-bay Vendors is.......

c) The volume of jobs involved - and the time that costs. Annoyingly most of which are within the skillset of the owner (or can be easily enough learnt) - but the time to complete all 1,000 easy / quick (Lol!) tasks should not be underestimated.......over an extended period a refurb project can really suck out the soul . You do need to get something out of the process during the refurb, other than only the dream at the end of.

d) Buy well........not neccessarily the cheapest (although that always nice ) but the best bang for your b#ck, given your intended purpose and timescale and skillset. The best place for financing (of boat and refit) is the Vendor at time of purchase

e) Plan your Refurb project. On paper / PC. No plan ever survives first contact but vital to keep a handle on what's coming down the pipe, both for morale and also to plan / buy ahead ("bargains" rarely appear exactly when you want them to ).



Could add a squillion more things - but this thread of more value from multiple viewpoints, time will tell how that goes...........

[sneuman]

The first thing among the "must haves" I would cross off the list are electronics. Chances are great they are already outdated when you purchased the boat, and guaranteed they are completely outdated by the time the refit is finished. Nothing wrong with outdated electronics -- I have a 20-year-old radar that seems to work just fine -- but don't assume any of them will have any monetary value by the time you start cruising. You're either going to use the outdated stuff that's there when you bought the boat or replace part or all of it with new-fangled gizmos. Either way, there is no value to the electronics suite you get when you buy a refurb project.

I agree that the two biggest hurtles on a refurb project are time and money -- if you have more of one, you can do with a proportionate less amount of the other. For me, money is the sticking point, so time is of the essence. I have spent 80 percent of my weekends for the past few years getting the boat up to scratch - but there has come a time (finally!) when the projects seem less onerous. I have crossed most of the really big ones off my list.

I think it's a sliding scale on purchase price vs. the amount of time and expense on the refurbishment. If I had it to do over, I would have shopped for a boat that needed less work, but then I couldn't have really afforded a more expensive boat, so that's probably a moot point.

[delmarrey]

As a person that has been doing such, these are the ups and downs of it all.

First you need a place to keep the boat that you can justify the cost for the long period. Especially in bad weather climates.

Consider the weather. In cold/wet you'll need a shelter or work only when weather permits, and prioritize that so you don't slack off on the nice days.

All of the above about the boat. The electronics, save and buy last.

Don't go in debt for more then a 3-6 months on anything. Pay cash and surf the web for best prices. If you have other debts other then a house & car, it takes from the boat.

If married, this may be a major downfall. With kids even more so, unless they can willingly help as you go. I've lost 2 wife's to a sailors life.
Relationships require personal time on demand! You're better off single. In my case lately, both the wife and I worked second shifts and she worked the weekends, which I worked on the boat most of the time. 5 out of 7 eves a week were together. Now she still works and I'm retired.

Time is valuable, don't waste it. Make each day account for something. But do go on vacations!!! But one can not be a slacker.

Skill level: The higher the level, the more money you'll save. But do remember, anything structural, your life may depend on the quality of work.

Sail the boat at least once a year!!!! Do not tear into the boat so much that it can not be put back together within a short time. Interior work excluded. Some times whole interiors need to be totally "refurbished", which is usually a personal choice. As well, access to external fittings can tear up the interior. So again, chose the best boat possible and within budget. Any boat over 43' starts to accelerates dramatically in co$t as the size goes up

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by sneuman

The first thing among the "must haves" I would cross off the list are electronics. Chances are great they are already outdated when you purchased the boat, and guaranteed they are completely outdated by the time the refit is finished. Nothing wrong with outdated electronics -- I have a 20-year-old radar that seems to work just fine -- but don't assume any of them will have any monetary value by the time you start cruising. You're either going to use the outdated stuff that's there when you bought the boat or replace part or all of it with new-fangled gizmos. Either way, there is no value to the electronics suite you get when you buy a refurb project.

The electronics on my boat are probably close to twenty years old at a guess. (Anyone know when Humminbird stopped selling NS10 GPS Plotters?) but as you say, that doesn't mean it's not good, it just means it has no significant resale value. The VHF and 27mhz radios are probably ten to twelve and the echo sounder is so old it's one of those spinning light things. I really wanted radar for the long haul home, so, largely because I couldn't find anything better that I can afford right now (s/h radar is very scarce for some reason and even 20 year old CRT stuff goes for seven hundred bucks or more.) I bought a 1976 Furuno FR160. It's a dinosaur even amongst CRT dinosaurs, but it was working when pulled and stored, so if there's anything that's expired over the time in storage, it's probably something I can fix. Importantly, it was only $100, including having it packed on a small pallet for shipping by the seller (he charged $25 to do that).
Given the 20 year old radar that sold for over $700, it seems that some items ARE worth bucks, no matter how old they are.
This one's worth a lot more to me, it's old, basic and probably not a fabulous performer, but as long as it can see a couple miles further than me after dark, it will do nicely for now.
I see the 'obsolete - replace it' a lot with computers. I have systems at home doing useful work that date from the nineties and a few that are older. They might not be worth spending MONEY on, but my time is essentially my own these days, and I have a lot of it, but not a lot of money. So if if my radar need fifteen hours of desoldering and replacing a hatful of 50c electrolytic caps, I can afford the time, but not $1500+ for a new radar. Naturally not everyone would be comfortable doing that themselves, but then I wouldn't be comfortable trying to make a sail so...
There are always means to save money, they are different for everyone...

AussieGeoff

[Galdarol]

Originally Posted by sneuman

The first thing among the "must haves" I would cross off the list are electronics. Chances are great they are already outdated when you purchased the boat, and guaranteed they are completely outdated by the time the refit is finished. Nothing wrong with outdated electronics -- I have a 20-year-old radar that seems to work just fine -- but don't assume any of them will have any monetary value by the time you start cruising. You're either going to use the outdated stuff that's there when you bought the boat or replace part or all of it with new-fangled gizmos. Either way, there is no value to the electronics suite you get when you buy a refurb project.

I don't know enough about boat electronics, yet, but due to corrosion factors, you may find that boat electronics use a certain amount of gold.
As someone who's scrapped things from nails to a Boeing 747, you'd be surprised what you find.
But I may be completely wrong. Or maybe I should shut up, find out for myself and buy everyone else's junk

[Reefmagnet]

My succinct advice, after having refurbed a previous boat and being presently in the middle of a "refit" of the new-to-us boat is:

• Buy with your head not your heart
• Expect to spend 3 times what you originally thought you would and take 4 times as long doing the work.
• Plan ahead and do an initial budget. Yes it will blow out in time and expense, but it acts as a guide to keep you on track.
• A longish refit time and a plan means that you know what you need up front and have time to wait for those bargains to appear on Ebay. This can represent a considerable saving.
• Face the reality that much of what you spend on the refurb will return pennies in the dollar at resale and most of your invested time will also be worth diddly squat

And my most important bits of advice are:
1) Never look behind, inside or under ANYTHING. Doing so will only lead to more work and expense
2) Avoid boats made of steel or wood requiring "TLC" unless you are a bona fide expert in them. Boatyards are full of abandoned timber and steel dreams.

[Lagoon4us]

[*]Expect to spend 3 times what you originally thought you would and take 4 times as long doing the work. And if a Cat x by three to allow for the bridgedeck and by five if a trimaran.... It's all a matter of square area!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

My succinct advice, after having refurbed a previous boat and being presently in the middle of a "refit" of the new-to-us boat is:

• Buy with your head not your heart
• Expect to spend 3 times what you originally thought you would and take 4 times as long doing the work.
• Plan ahead and do an initial budget. Yes it will blow out in time and expense, but it acts as a guide to keep you on track.
• A longish refit time and a plan means that you know what you need up front and have time to wait for those bargains to appear on Ebay. This can represent a considerable saving.
• Face the reality that much of what you spend on the refurb will return pennies in the dollar at resale and most of your invested time will also be worth diddly squat

And my most important bits of advice are:
1) Never look behind, inside or under ANYTHING. Doing so will only lead to more work and expense
2) Avoid boats made of steel or wood requiring "TLC" unless you are a bona fide expert in them. Boatyards are full of abandoned timber and steel dreams.

Very well put!
I would say:
* Be very careful to avoid hull, cabin and deck problems, this work is not much fun, messy, needs to be done in good weather, and some things just never end.....
* Getting a boat with an older Radar can save a good chunk of change, they seem to live a long time. Other electronics... not much value after a few years old.
* Figure on replacing any "accessories or appliances" older than 7-8 years.... even if currently working. Pumps, hoses, etc. (not including engines, windlasses)
* Screwed down teak decks will have wet deck cores.

On the other hand, I knew someone who bought a big strong boat that needed lots of work, they did nothing to it and went cruising. The deck core was so wet that it was visibly buckled up in spots. The Perkins was old with many hours, but ran well. When they were done cruising about 3 years, they sold the boat for ~ the same they paid! I think they were smarter than many of us!!

[hummingway]

Good thread idea David.

My experience may reflect my inexperience. Deciding what to work on has been a process of first learning about it, as well as seeing what breaks, and then deciding what to fix. In my case I can say the surveys were of no value with this. I can understand this since so many things are hard to look at and get a sense of their state.

I have gotten a lot of use from the boat over the last couple of years and I've spent a lot of time working on it. My list is getting longer not shorter though.

The engine is a good example. There were oddities that made me wonder if I should walk away but I paid the mechanic that surveyed the engine extra to do more tests and dig deeper to see if the engine was good. He even had discussions over an oil pressure issue with Perkins who said it's supposed to be that way. The boatyard here is just finishing a bottom up rebuild of my motor at the sort of cost that ... well lets just say I won't be getting that new heads'l for a while.

I'll continue my approach of mixing use and rebuild because it makes it seem worth while to me and I have much to learn.

[Nateman]

Never buy a frozen boat! Look at it when it's thawed out... Ask me how I know about re-coring my cabin sole and deck! LOL

[Boracay]

I take it you're considering whether to sell your current boat and to buy again or whether what you've got is good enough?

Having owned a small fibreglass yacht, built two boats from scratch and almost completely fitted out Boracay I'd recon the answer lies in what you want to do with the boat. Is it the project you'll enjoy or the final use?

Financially, of course, refurbishing an older boat makes no sense at all. Better to flip burgers, mow lawns or fleece tourists and then buy a newish boat or one that someone else has poured their heart into.

Noticing your signature line if I were a single person building a trimaran I'd do it at one of the boatyards located a bus ride from Cebu City. Carmen and Port Bonbonon come to mind.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Boracay

Noticing your signature line if I were a single person building a trimaran I'd do it at one of the boatyards located a bus ride from Cebu City. Carmen and Port Bonbonon come to mind.

I think his backyard will do; click the link to see what I mean.

[David_Old_Jersey]

This thread wasn't really intended to be about me / my boat and my experiances from "The Great (never ending ) DOJ Refurb Project"......although I am sure I will be chipping in some more.......

Originally Posted by Boracay

I take it you're considering whether to sell your current boat and to buy again or whether what you've got is good enough?

Not selling, this one was bought as (and still is!) a keeper

Would I do another refurb? Certainly Not bigger. Well, not intentionally But depending on circumstances and intended use might be tempted by something smaller needing "a bit" of TLC......but (unless a motorboat ) that probably somewhere else than Jersey. and very much one for the future.

Noticing your signature line if I were a single person building a trimaran I'd do it at one of the boatyards located a bus ride from Cebu City. Carmen and Port Bonbonon come to mind.

My Trimaran

The intention is to refine (develop!) some boat building skills in Jersey (where I have tools available / workshop onshore) and then maybe repeat the process somewhere warm - I have half an eye on Malaysia for that, but elsewhere (cheap and hot ) not totally out of the question.

But rather annoyingly I do still have to earn a living Well, at least sometimes.

[RonaldJ]

I suspect you said it in jest, but what about recoring some deck??? I bought a boat this fall, knowing I had some recore ahead of me.

[CharlieCobra]

If ya find filler next to the chainplates, be prepared for agony. If ya find goop next to the chainplates on a wooden boat, be prepared to lift the house, decks and anything between you and those rotton structural members... That or to have a good bit of firewood....