Propane for Dummies

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Thomas1985

The propane locker of EVERY boat we looked at was a fire hazard.

I really want to replace our stove and oven with electric or some other solution. Anyone done so and like the result?

There is a lot of discussion on here about transitioning to electric cooking.

People who do it seem to all be glad they did.

I have a full gas installation and large 4-burner gas stove/oven, but I don't use gas more than a couple times a week probably. I mostly use an induction hob.

A good partial transition is to leave the gas off and cook with a portable induction hob for a while and see how you like it.

I like it a lot. I would convert fully to induction if there were a drop-in solution, but there is not.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Brilliant! (You've got me thinking)

I already have a gas locker and a 2 burner stove installed. I got a quote the other day to have it plumbed up - $3200 That would buy a lot of solar cell and storage battery. (I already have a 120A MPPT controller)

I think I'll rip the stove out and replace it with a double induction hob. I already have a 24V 2000W/4000W inverter, a 1400W microwave installed and a 2000W induction hob.

$3200 is insane.


Great excuse to go electric.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Standard installation in the EU is a solenoid at the tank which is switched off whenever not using the gas.

Otherwise you've got pressurized gas in the interior of the boat 24/7 rather than merely at the times when you are using gas. To each his own, of course, but I would, personally, never, ever do it like that.

Pressure gauge is rare in the EU, and I don't have one, but it's a very good thing to have and I will be installing one next time I mess with my gas system.

Can you cite about EU solenoid requirements? A French production boat I sail on has only the tank shutoff and an inside ball valve, and yet has a CE certificate.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There is a lot of discussion on here about transitioning to electric cooking.

People who do it seem to all be glad they did.

I have a full gas installation and large 4-burner gas stove/oven, but I don't use gas more than a couple times a week probably. I mostly use an induction hob.

A good partial transition is to leave the gas off and cook with a portable induction hob for a while and see how you like it.

I like it a lot. I would convert fully to induction if there were a drop-in solution, but there is not.

If I had any doubts before I don't now after reading comments on this thread and other threads.

I already have a new 2000W induction hob but I was pricing them earlier this afternoon and found they are around $A40 on eBay. Am I missing something?

Coupled with a 1400W (infra red) microwave I wouldn't need anything else. Of course I wouldn't be able to run both at the same time BUT both wouldn't be drawing full charge all the time?

Tomorrow I will be pricing solar panels which I will have to mount over the transom and they will be bifacial.

AND no lugging of heavy LPG bottles

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_...table&_sacat=0

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Benz

Can you cite about EU solenoid requirements? A French production boat I sail on has only the tank shutoff and an inside ball valve, and yet has a CE certificate.

Solenoid may or may not be required, but it's universally used on quality boats in Europe.


Note I said "quality". Mass produced French boats sometimes have some of the most insanely scary gas installations which certainly don't meet CE requirements.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Solenoid may or may not be required, but it's universally used on quality boats in Europe.


Note I said "quality". Mass produced French boats sometimes have some of the most insanely scary gas installations which certainly don't meet CE requirements.

I've chartered French boats in the Caribbean and they all had a manual valve inside the boat. The first time I saw that was just after I had converted my own boat to propane so the AYBC standard was fresh in my mind. I was pretty shocked that they were allowed to set them up that way. We opened and shut the tank valve at each use which is exactly what the AYBC standard is written to make you not have to do. I guess AYBC figured most people won't bother to do that.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

I've chartered French boats in the Caribbean and they all had a manual valve inside the boat. The first time I saw that was just after I had converted my own boat to propane so the AYBC standard was fresh in my mind. I was pretty shocked that they were allowed to set them up that way. We opened and shut the tank valve at each use which is exactly what the AYBC standard is written to make you not have to do. I guess AYBC figured most people won't bother to do that.

ABYC doesn't apply in the Caribbean.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

ABYC doesn't apply in the Caribbean.

Or in France or the rest of the EU. Their standards allow interior connections, ours do not.

[Foswick]

Not suprisingly, comments fall broadly into two groups. There is the group that says, "This isn't rocket science - follow the guidelines and you'll be fine." And, there is the group that says, "If you touch the system and do not have some sort of certification, you will instantly perish in a huge fireball, be arrested, or both." (I exaggerate.)

That is pretty typical of any boating-related issue. There are two distinct schools of thought in the community, often within the same individual. On one hand, there is a tendency toward self-sufficiency and a little bit of counter-culture. On the other hand, there is a somewhat fear-based rule-following mindset.

I think it is good to have both, in balance. Without the cautious side, we would all drown, explode, or lose limbs. Without the more free-wheeling side, we would never even own a boat in the first place.

Notwithstanding the fact that some people live in areas where insurance and regulations are restrictive, I cannot see why this is not a relatively simple DIY job.

You could say that it is not a DIY job because if you get it wrong, it is extremely dangerous. But, I would counter that propane is only one of a million things that we do as sailors that fall under this heading. I can't leave the dock without taking responsibility for doing some things right. I don't think this is appreciably different. In fact, as these things go, it is considerably more cut-and-dried than most.

I would further counter that, because it is dangerous if done wrong, that is PRECISELY why I might want to do it myself. That's why people pack their own parachutes. No one loves my boat or my family as much as I do, so who should I rely on to do this job right?

Now, it does mean that I have more homework to do than a professional who does this more frequently. That is because I have to learn quite a bit that they already know. But, they do not have mystical superpowers and the task is not complicated.

I would argue that, overall, doing it myself makes me safer because I not only know that the job was done right the first time, I am better equipped to understand and fix problems that may come up when I cannot call upon that professional. (I know some will ask, "How do you know you did it right?" Well, that's why I do my homework.)

I guess my question is, what do you think a professional will do that you (or I) would not? Being a professional does not make you good at your job. And, even the best professionals have good days and bad days.

Sure, I get that it is important to understand one's limits. I had a mast bend several years ago. I could have fixed it myself, but I knew that the job was complicated, involved some creative problem solving that relies on experience, and that I would not realistically take the time to ramp up on all of the skills, knowledge, and tools to do it right. So, I hired a guy.

But, this isn't that.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Or in France or the rest of the EU. Their standards allow interior connections, ours do not.

ABYC A1 does appear to allow interior connection for the shut off valve. I quote from the standard:

Section 1.7 Cylinders, Valves, and Safety Devices

1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or its control shall be operable in the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the even of a fire at any appliance(s). If the cylinder shutoff valve is readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shutoff valve in the supply line is not required.

1.7.3.1.1 The valve or its control shall be operable without reaching over the top of any open flame appliance (e.g. cooking appliance burners).

dj

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by dlj

ABYC A1 does appear to allow interior connection for the shut off valve. I quote from the standard:

Section 1.7 Cylinders, Valves, and Safety Devices

1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or its control shall be operable in the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the even of a fire at any appliance(s). If the cylinder shutoff valve is readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shutoff valve in the supply line is not required.

1.7.3.1.1 The valve or its control shall be operable without reaching over the top of any open flame appliance (e.g. cooking appliance burners).

dj

My understanding is that describes where the control switch for the solenoid valve is to be located. The valve itself is in the propone locker.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I have to disagree. Liquid fuel in little bottles that you have to carry and refuel the stove while underway is not safe. At least not any safer than propane. It really isn't difficult to install a safe propane system, as long as you are not super lazy.

and FWIW I've heard that many California Marinas will deny boats with Alcohol stoves.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Solenoid may or may not be required, but it's universally used on quality boats in Europe.


Note I said "quality". Mass produced French boats sometimes have some of the most insanely scary gas installations which certainly don't meet CE requirements.

Perhaps the boat isn't "quality" by your notions, but it 1: has a CE certificate of compliance. 2: has no solenoid. It's immaterial for this discussion what's "universally used," since I was speaking of regulations and requirements in discussing his installation with the PO.
Since he seems to have a US-flagged boat, he's not legally bound to any propane standards, and my point is that both EU regulators and common sense easily allow a propane system such as I've described. If other people's safety standards make you nervous, that doesn't mean they're unsafe--it just means you're....different.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

My understanding is that describes where the control switch for the solenoid valve is to be located. The valve itself is in the propone locker.

That was also my understanding, but reading the A1 standard, it appears not to be the case. I'm not a expert in the standard, but I read it pretty carefully. Sure seems like it would be acceptable by the ABYC A1 standard to have the valve inside the boat. You just have to be able to reach it from close to the stove without reaching across the stove. On my boat, I have a solenoid valve out in the propane locker and an on-off switch near the stove. I much prefer this set-up. I would not be comfortable having a mechanical valve inside. But, it does seem to be acceptable by the standard.

dj

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by dlj

That was also my understanding, but reading the A1 standard, it appears not to be the case. I'm not a expert in the standard, but I read it pretty carefully. Sure seems like it would be acceptable by the ABYC A1 standard to have the valve inside the boat. You just have to be able to reach it from close to the stove without reaching across the stove. On my boat, I have a solenoid valve out in the propane locker and an on-off switch near the stove. I much prefer this set-up. I would not be comfortable having a mechanical valve inside. But, it does seem to be acceptable by the standard.

dj

First, I don't have access to A1, so you may have details I'm not privy to.

I suppose you wouldn't have to have the switch if your propane was stored inside the cabin in a locker that met all ABYC propane locker requirements, though I personally haven't been in a boat that had a propane locker inside the cabin and met AbYC requirements (not sure I want to either).

Maybe the part of A1 that you cite refers to vessels with an outdoor BBQ or outdoor stove that has a locker next to or under the stove/BBQ.