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16-11-2015, 18:20
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#196
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Just thought I'd post some candy that caught my eye recently:
Pacific Seacraft SouthSea 61 | Cruising World
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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16-11-2015, 22:54
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#197
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,663
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
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And for what it's worth, Pacific Seacraft is using a glassed-in grid for this boat:
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
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17-11-2015, 00:43
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#198
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott
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Yep-but no liner. And no Plexus. Plus, you'll note in the pics you posted, this is not a drop in grid. It's a series of structural floor timbers glassed in place. This is how boats should be built.
Check out renderings here:
http://pacificseacraft.com/566287/renderings/
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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17-11-2015, 01:06
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#199
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,024
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Yep-but no liner. And no Plexus. Plus, you'll note in the pics you posted, this is not a drop in grid. It's a series of structural floor timbers glassed in place. This is how boats should be built.
Check out renderings here:
http://pacificseacraft.com/566287/renderings/
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And no doubt balsa cored?
Nice looking boat; very innovative. Love the pilot house and separate cockpit.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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17-11-2015, 01:36
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#200
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
And no doubt balsa cored?
Nice looking boat; very innovative. Love the pilot house and separate cockpit.
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Actually very similar to my boat. Except I prefer mine because I doubt you can see over the bow from this pilothouse, and my rig is more than 10' taller, with 500' plus more sail area. Plus, I have a bigger engine and more than twice as much tankage. Sure I'm 10k lbs heavier and 10' shorter; I'm sure this boat has much better light air performance, and overall performance for that matter. But I wouldn't call it innovative, nothing new and revolutionary (hence risky) there, just good old fashioned sound design and solid construction.
Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:
About our quality:
Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.
Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.
-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft
If only every builder operated this way! I think their reward should be-increased market share!
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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17-11-2015, 03:14
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#201
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,024
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Actually very similar to my boat. Except I prefer mine because I doubt you can see over the bow from this pilothouse, and my rig is more than 10' taller, with 500' plus more sail area. Plus, I have a bigger engine and more than twice as much tankage. Sure I'm 10k lbs heavier and 10' shorter; I'm sure this boat has much better light air performance, and overall performance for that matter. But I wouldn't call it innovative, nothing new and revolutionary (hence risky) there, just good old fashioned sound design and solid construction.
Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:
About our quality:
Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.
Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.
-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft
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Not built for the masses, means they will not scrimp (so to speak) on hull construction -- sounds like their hulls will be cored
The Pacific Seacraft 37 was cored above the waterline, and a fully cored hull (your choice of foam or balsa) was an extra cost option. The Pacific Seacraft 44 is fully cored. I don't know what technique they use.
I don't know what the construction of the 61 ketch is, but Bob Perry's large customs are all fully cored, as far as I know. Dollars to donuts, this one is too. I wrote to him to ask.
* * *
I have always admired Nauticats. Last winter in Yarmouth, on a cold day, I was berthed across from a family in theirs. How cozy they looked in their pilothouse! At that moment, I realized the pilothouse is not just for passagemaking. My next boat will have one for sure.
I also like the oversized machinery in Nauticats. I think that all modern cruising boats are actually motorsailers -- we just don't like to admit it. So having enough engine power to power upwind in strong weather is a really big plus. My next boat will have this, too. And a Hundested prop
But it will not be a Nauticat -- it will be light and fast. D/L of under 200. Narrow beam. About 60' -- 62' on deck. It will have a bit of Sundeer DNA in it. As to cored versus uncored hull for my next boat -- actually it will be neither. I think my next boat will be metal.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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17-11-2015, 03:58
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#202
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
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BoB Perry design........
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17-11-2015, 05:06
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#203
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon
Posts: 5,972
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
The usual one pic per post on an iPhone.
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Holy Crap that's insane... I thought construction techniques like that stopped at 25'....
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
My Nauticat is all Bruynzeel. Haven't found less than nine ply. All looks like the day it was built.
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Thanks for makin' me google Bruynzeel.... I feel marginally smarter today...
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
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Oh man.... That's so sweet.... If I had the 50/25/10/3%... I'd be in ...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...
Mai Tai's fix everything...
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17-11-2015, 07:30
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#204
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,024
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
.. . .
Look carefully at the posted pics; see any core blocks in that laminate? Pretty sure PS has always built solid hulls. Here's a quote from their website:
About our quality:
Quality will continue to be priority number one and I assure you that no vessel will leave this facility that does not meet my personal meticulous standards and those of the experienced production management team. We are constantly bombarded by suppliers engineers and consultants advising us to follow mainstream trends to increase our market share, to cut corners to save dollars. These petitions will continue to fall on deaf ears.
Pacific Seacraft will never be a boat for the masses-but for a select few who still cherish beauty in design coupled with safety and stability at sea-above all else.
-Stephen Brodie, Pacific Seacraft
If only every builder operated this way! I think their reward should be-increased market share!
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Quick reply from the designer - the new Pacific Seacraft 61' ketch is fully cored, using foam.
You owe me a donut
Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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17-11-2015, 19:18
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#205
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 2,490
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
I do wonder about cored hulls and the knock on them. Imagine it must be a quality and build issue, and maybe if you're past a certain age you are safe from defect, presuming you haven't breached the skin or added through hulls
There are scores of 30-40 year old perfectly sound Tartan 37s sailing around with cored hulls, and my 28 year old tartan 40 is fully cored as well, though the core is removed at midline and at every through hull fitting. Still dry as a bone by survey 18 months ago.
C&C has a bunch of vintage models still very actively being sailed.
A main objective for me in choosing a cruising boat was light air performance since that's what you find a lot out there. Not as interested in extreme latitudes so didn't want a tank. The cored hull adds lots of stiffness and sound/temp insulation without extra weight.
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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18-11-2015, 10:24
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#206
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
I don't have any personal issue with synthetic cores on hulls until I fix a old Privilege power cat with a 60% delaminated surface on both hulls, no water damage so far, just both skins loosing grip with the foam core... I guess this boat is build prior any infusion vacum technique ,,
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19-11-2015, 10:58
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#207
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Newfoundland
Boat: Beneteau
Posts: 671
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.
I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.
Sent from my SM-T310 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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19-11-2015, 13:11
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#208
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nortonscove
I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.
I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.
Sent from my SM-T310 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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That part about 30% contact equal to any glassed stringer is wrong wrong wrong...
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19-11-2015, 13:35
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#209
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: Wauquiez Centurion 32
Posts: 2,880
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride
That part about 30% contact equal to any glassed stringer is wrong wrong wrong...
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In addition it is not just strength that is the issue. It is about access and the ability to repair damage were that to occur.
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19-11-2015, 13:45
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#210
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,901
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Re: Most boats have liners; which ones do it best?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nortonscove
I'm hearing all these concerns about liners but none of them make much sense. If the liner makes contact to 30% of the hull it still equates to vastly more than any stringer would. My other concern comes from adding wood or metal where it is embedded in fibreglass. This is fine when the sheathing never gets compromised but if and when it does you end up depending totally on mud to provide structural integrity. My 1994 liner ranges from 1/2 inch thick in the parts I seeas webbing to 3/4 inches or more in the stiffeners. This is simply another forum argument where mine is better or worse than yours based upon some erroneous information or innate desire to justify ones choice ad truthfully what can be taken from all that has been stated so far is minimal.
I have statedthis before and will reiterate tha some people will continue to search for a vessel offering every protection from all possible scenarios and never understand that the ocean is a dangerous place no boat can offer complete protection from. If this isyou then shop for an RV.
Sent from my SM-T310 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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The concern with liners is access to infrastructure, and especially if repairs are required, as well as the concern of the actual integrity of the bonds used to connect the liner to the hull.
Experts like Minaret and neilpride work with the consequences of repairs were those issues occur. They are worth listening to.
It appears that a few manufactures that use liners do it better than others. IP apparently uses partial liners in a manner that at least infrastructure is accessible. I can't speak for repairs; I don't recall anyone making comments on that, but IP generally has a pretty good reputation.
My current boat does not have a liner, and is overbuilt in many ways. I am not looking for an immediate change, but do want to keep my eye open on good candidates. Dockhead has pointed out a very interesting prospect, the Southerly, with a fairly robust swing keel. More $$ than others, but certainly worth considering.
Concerns about liners is legitimate. As is concerns about what material though hulls use, electrical wiring and many other construction details. Backing of deck fixtures is important, and many builders skimp on that small issue not using proper backing plates.
Is the perfect boat out there? Of course not, unless one has an unlimited budget, but at least a buyer should be cognizant of relevant issues, and then decide which deficiencies they can accept, and what features are a must have.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
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