Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

[Carraiadimare]

Hello everybody,
MYbe someone will remember my request for full specification on about the materials used in seacocks from Beneteau, specially regarding to the ones from 2009 as I own an Oceanis 37 new 2009.
Well I got the answer finally and directly from Beneteau. I'm Italian, so there are not many thing that really surprise me or that I can consider incredible, but this answer, the proud and professionality with wich they report and certificate what was only a nightmare for me till then, and is now a sad reality, is amazing and only keeps on demonstrating that the system through wich many still intend to gain their power is through people ignorance. I report it all down here and that's all. Dear Sir,

For more than a decade, Beneteau has been installing brass thru hulls which composition is CuZn40Pb2 (CW617N).

The composition is defined as follow: Zn40= 38% zinc, Pb2= 2% of lead, and the rest as copper 58%
Others materials, aluminum, tin, nickel, steel, manganese, silicium, antimony as well as arsenic are used to a total of 2%.

These thru hulls have been made in Italy for over 40 years for a usage in a sea water environment.

However it is clear that, like any materials submerged in seawater, brass, over the years, will deteriorate due to chemical or electrical electrolysis.

Electrolysis is happening from stray current coming from the boat electrical system or from shore (docks as well as others surrounding boats)

Electrolysis is also coming from other materials in the water that create an electrical current that result in corrosion (batteries, metal structures).

To our knowledge, corrosion on thru hulls are episodic and in non-significant quantities in the one boat per thousand.

We recommend an annual inspection of all thru hulls for a color change (from yellow to pink) as well as a regular replacement of the anode zincs and if necessary the addition of more anode.

The webmaster for the spare parts department


For more than a decade, Beneteau has been installing brass thru hulls which composition is CuZn40Pb2 (CW617N).

The composition is defined as follow: Zn40= 38% zinc, Pb2= 2% of lead, and the rest as copper 58%
Others materials, aluminum, tin, nickel, steel, manganese, silicium, antimony as well as arsenic are used to a total of 2%.

These thru hulls have been made in Italy for over 40 years for a usage in a sea water environment.

However it is clear that, like any materials submerged in seawater, brass, over the years, will deteriorate due to chemical or electrical electrolysis.

Electrolysis is happening from stray current coming from the boat electrical system or from shore (docks as well as others surrounding boats)

Electrolysis is also coming from other materials in the water that create an electrical current that result in corrosion (batteries, metal structures).

To our knowledge, corrosion on thru hulls are episodic and in non-significant quantities in the one boat per thousand.

We recommend an annual inspection of all thru hulls for a color change (from yellow to pink) as well as a regular replacement of the anode zincs and if necessary the addition of more anode.

The webmaster for the spare parts department

piermarco Billi <carraia@icloud.com>
05/10/2012 09:50


Pour : "internet@beneteau.fr" <internet@beneteau.fr>
cc :
Objet : Sea cocks Oceanis 37 2012



Good morning,
I own an Oceanis 37 bought new in 2009 . I'd like to know the specification and materials of the seacocks on this boat. I just couldn't find it in my owner's manual or the rest.
Thank you for any support

Piermarco Billi
Firenze
Italia


For more than a decade, Beneteau has been installing brass thru hulls which composition is CuZn40Pb2 (CW617N).

The composition is defined as follow: Zn40= 38% zinc, Pb2= 2% of lead, and the rest as copper 58%
Others materials, aluminum, tin, nickel, steel, manganese, silicium, antimony as well as arsenic are used to a total of 2%.

These thru hulls have been made in Italy for over 40 years for a usage in a sea water environment.

However it is clear that, like any materials submerged in seawater, brass, over the years, will deteriorate due to chemical or electrical electrolysis.

Electrolysis is happening from stray current coming from the boat electrical system or from shore (docks as well as others surrounding boats)

Electrolysis is also coming from other materials in the water that create an electrical current that result in corrosion (batteries, metal structures).

To our knowledge, corrosion on thru hulls are episodic and in non-significant quantities in the one boat per thousand.

We recommend an annual inspection of all thru hulls for a color change (from yellow to pink) as well as a regular replacement of the anode zincs and if necessary the addition of more anode.

The webmaster for the spare parts department

piermarco Billi <carraia@icloud.com>
05/10/2012 09:50


Pour : "internet@beneteau.fr" <internet@beneteau.fr>
cc :
Objet : Sea cocks Oceanis 37 2012



Good morning,
I own an Oceanis 37 bought new in 2009 . I'd like to know the specification and materials of the seacocks on this boat. I just couldn't find it in my owner's manual or the rest.
Thank you for any support

Piermarco Billi
Firenze
Italia

[SaltyMonkey]

wow shocking

[sailorchic34]

Lots of the seacocks and valves you buy nowadays have high zinc content. More so with yellow brass and not red brass which still uses tin and 15% ish zinc.

What happens is the zinc being the least noble metal, get sacrificed via galvanic corrosion. This leaves the brass porous and weak.

[Stumble]

Sadly this is a strict price issue. When people complain about the cost of marine parts, keep in mind the Groco (that still uses red brass) used a significantly premium product. But with the price of copper going up quickly, even quality manufacturers are getting squeezed.

Of course I have to mention it, but titanium is getting to the point that we can replace siliconized bronze, for roughly the same price... But at half the weight, and do not suffer from corrosion in salt water.

[djmarchand]

I can only hope that Beneteau gave you wrong information from someone in the PR department, not a production guy.

Yellow brass with 30-40% zinc content will quickly fail in saltwater. Every boat builder knows this (but their PR guys obviously don't) and use red brass or naval bronze (very similar specifications with about 5% zinc content) through hulls.

I doubt that you can buy a flanged through hull valve in yellow brass. Certainly not from someone like Groco. I doubt if you can buy a ball valve with straight threads on one end (to thread onto a through hull fitting) in yellow brass. The only application for that valve is in seawater service and anyone selling one in yellow brass should be run out of the business.

David

[sailorchic34]

Per ASTM red brass valves can be anywhere from 5% zinc (ASTM B584-C83600) to 15% zinc (ASTM B584-C84800)

yellow brass is 24% to 38% zinc depending on listing.

The typical apollo / cobranco ball valves sold in marine stores (in the US anyway) are 9% zinc and classified as Leaded semi-red brass.

I could not find any listing information on Groco valves. Only information I can find just say Brass. No ASTM numbers and the UL listing relates to fire and smoke rating and not to structural materials.

[Stumble]

Groco uses C88440. But they are one of the few companies left that are still using high quality stuff. Everyone complains about the cost of 'marine' parts, and claims that just because it has marine in the name it costs more...

While this may be true some places, often it is the manufacturer who uses high quality parts that will last, instead of cheap just. The value may not be visible, but often it is there.

[Sailorman375]

Both Blakes and Sparton are using true Bronze and of good quality. I would love to find a nickel aluminum bronze or titanium seacock, but alas I work for one of the two companies that dominate the military and offshore oil and gas industry supplying valves for sea water service, but ships and platforms don't use seacoks, but rather a sea chest. I may well replace my old Blakes with NAB ball valves on good bronze thru hulls as I can get them at cost with any threads I want. Still these are very expensive even when compared to the Spartons and Blakes. I've yet to find NAB thru hulls although I've been able to source titanium. We also manufacture titanium valves, but these are still very expensive as casting is expensive (Vacuum) as it is a reactive metal. Thru hulls I'm assuming are forged or cut from bar and are getting fairly cost effective at this point, but sadly not the valves. I'm talking about well over $500 for an 1 1/2" in small quantities.
It is hard to believe builders are using brass rather than composite if cost cutting is of concern. By the way be very careful with Apollo as I believe their bronze body ball valves are standard with a chrome plated brass ball. If you go with Apollo at least order with a 316 SS ball.

[Lagoon4us]

Next slip i'm taking one thru-hull off and bring it back to Australia for testing at a NATA lab just to know the facts. Ours when sanded were a nice yellow/bronze colour.. Thanks for the heads up. Frank

[O.C.Diver]

A while back I replaced the 2" seacock and much of the related plumbing in my charter boat. Much of the plumbing and the seacock were badly pitted. When everything was replaced I did 2 things. 1st I tied the seacock to the boats bonding system. 2nd I teed the line above the seacock and installed a large (3/4" thread) pencil zinc (there used in large heat exchangers). Every year I replace this zinc which is usually half gone. Hoping these 2 additions will help eliminate any deterioration. it's worked so far.

Ted

[Carraiadimare]

Well guys, let's put some order in all this and see what we know and what we don't, and I hope again for everybody's help to get to a set up for this argument.
1. It is clear that a correct and constant inspection of the part of our boats is necessary and no material or good item can provide for a 100% no problem functionality.

2. It is also clear that most of the building companies are not looking for the best performance and stability of materials, but just going to the limit of the respect of the rules for ce or other law standards.

3. The standards set for materials under the water line, according to CE mark, says they must last at least for 5 years!!! (UNBELIEVABLE)

4. Due to electrolisys always claimable, we don't seem to be able to get builders involved in problems with see cocks, even in the first 5 years

5. Most of us already put no faith in materials used in certain items and go to various refits on their own

6. Groco seems to have the best product, according to bronze percentage and so on (is it true?)

7. Even with an expert inspection, it's difficult to know if our seacock is actually going to break in moments: we never see the inside part and the ball valve condition.

8. A failure in a seacock is leading the boat to sinking in less than 30 minutes.

9. Still we have to determine wich is the best material under sea water effect: Bronze, Plastic, Titanium or what else?

10. Are there any other items that would drasticaly effect the boat's life and might be of poor, even if legal, quality?

Thanks everybody for your support: this is the only thing I feel I can trust actually.

Carraia di mare

[Lagoon4us]

There is a difference between 'Thru -hulls' and 'Seacocks' The former being a flanged spigot that a hose slides onto and is clamped and the latter being a cast essentially one piece or if in multiple pieces forming one without hoses.

I'm on the other side of the world to our boat right now but from memory the following applies....

Our waste product/sewage assemblies are plastic from three holding tanks.

Exhaust outlets are above water as are the shower drains and galley drains.

Our genset, water-maker and air-con are bronze with removable gauze filter. After market fitted i believe?

Engines are Volvos with inbuilt cooling through leg.

This leaves the toilet flush inlets which are bronze/questionable material they are from memory about 3/4 with hose on spigots not a true seacock.

So in reality not many (2) to actually cause grief BUT worth investigating.

The toilet flush valves are what i know as common bronze bodies with a SS ball, THEY are not seacocks, they are above water but fitted to lines charged with salt water. I dont like a pice of plastic between valve and thru-hull it's just not correct, these we had listed for replacement on our first slipping regardless.

As part of CYCA and JOG rules in Australia we always had to have a tapered wooden plug ready and tied to the adjacent plumbing to bash in said hole. Tis a good idea for sure.

Cheers good info ......

[Carraiadimare]

not sure if I understood it all (I'm from Firenze, Italia), but Thank you to Lagoon4us for reply. I think both trough hull and seacocks should be in an appropriate material, as, regardless for the sinking problem, also infiltration of sea water from a bad trough hull, into the hull is not acceptable.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

There is a difference between 'Thru -hulls' and 'Seacocks' The former being a flanged spigot that a hose slides onto and is clamped and the latter being a cast essentially one piece or if in multiple pieces forming one without hoses.

mmmm ..... not quite. There will be three distinct pieces in a typical below or near waterline inlet/outlet.

1. The Thruhull. This will have a flange that sits on the outside of the hull (flush or mushroom), with a pipe that goes thru the hull, and is either threaded (to screw on a valve) or barbed (to slide on a hose) on its inboard end.



2. The seacock. This is a valve with a handle, that screws onto the thruhull. They used to be all be tapered cove valves (which can be serviced) but have mostly moved to ball valves (Which are basically throw away). They used to, and still should have bases that screw or bolt to pads on the hull so that any leverage force on them (think about a piece of heavy gear falling on them) is on the hull and does not lever on and perhaps break off the thruhull. The other problem with in-line valves is that they typically will not properly engage the straight threads of a typical thru hull (and thus can/will weep/leak). However, many builders today use in-line valves that do not have bases.

Seacock with proper flange:

In-line ball valve:

3. The hose barb. This screws into the other side of the seacock and a hose slides onto it and is hose clamped.



With these three parts there are two most important factors.

The first is that when you screw one piece into the other that the threads are comparable. There are many different types of threads and you want them to mate together properly, or they can/will leak. Beneteau unfortunately often uses inline valves that do not have the same threads as their thruhulls (or their hose barbs). I have seen many where this has causes a very slow weeping of water thru the threads and over the outside of the valve causing corrosion (and rusting - as their in-line valves often seem to have mild steel nuts and other parts). An owner can cure this problem by putting Teflon tape (or plumbers putty) on the threads, but it is not proper.

The second is the material the items are made from. Bronze, DZR, stainless and marelon are the accepted materials. As discussed, Beneteau (And many other European builders) use common brass because CE lets them. CE's specification is that the material must last 5 years in typical usage and honestly I am not sure why they allow builders to use common bronze because it often does not - there is a (public) Moorings service bulletin that says they have to replace the brass pieces at a frequency less than 5 years.

[HopCar]

Another way to safely control water inlets is to use a Groco Flanged Adapter and ball valve.


More Info: Groco Flanged Adapter IBVF