Could use a little advice. Aluminum or Fiberglass for this?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Actually, thinking about this for a moment, isn’t this the same thing as doing the other methods? Although much faster if I could actually get it done?

As in, the stiffer section at the bottom you were talking about would not been the same as the top one and creating a stress spot where they join.

Then I will be back to worrying about the side loads again right?

My thought is that the extension is rigidly attached to the mast at that point (with the load spread over whatever length of splice) rather than there being a mast step between the 2 parts. So the side loads shouldn't present the same problems. And extending the mast below the boom should be easier than extending at the top because you're not hoisting a sail at that part, don't have to move rigging attachments, etc.

If a stiffness difference were a big issue down low, I'd expect any splice to be a problem (as the splice is stiffer than the mast on either side of it), yet there are plenty of spliced masts out there.

[smj]

Some tabernacle ideas.

[foufou]

Chotu, I have been following your progress with interest as I am also a boat builder albeit 1/3 the size of yours. And while you ask for advice in your initial post it seems that you want confirmation of your initial proposal. To be brutally honest your idea is not going to be pretty. Please don't take offense, none intended. I often struggle to find solutions to problems and often the first ideas are not the best. I just scrapped a piece I had taken some time to build when I finally had an inspired idea that was totally different. And a bit more time for the best solution is well worth it. What RaymondR said is exactly what will look good and not be over the top expense wise. Splicing masts is a common practice. Quite a few production masts are spliced from the initial build with many rivets that can be seen from the outside. Take the time and make it beautiful. Your project deserves that. All the best wishes for a great outcome. Foufou

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by foufou

Chotu, I have been following your progress with interest as I am also a boat builder albeit 1/3 the size of yours. And while you ask for advice in your initial post it seems that you want confirmation of your initial proposal. To be brutally honest your idea is not going to be pretty. Please don't take offense, none intended. I often struggle to find solutions to problems and often the first ideas are not the best. I just scrapped a piece I had taken some time to build when I finally had an inspired idea that was totally different. And a bit more time for the best solution is well worth it. What RaymondR said is exactly what will look good and not be over the top expense wise. Splicing masts is a common practice. Quite a few production masts are spliced from the initial build with many rivets that can be seen from the outside. Take the time and make it beautiful. Your project deserves that. All the best wishes for a great outcome. Foufou

That’s all fine, and that’s what I hoped to do. But there is no piece of this mast that exists anywhere. It is out of production. For many years.

It is not possible to take a piece and splice a new one on there.

There is no piece that exists to splice onto it.

So something else needs to be done.

I realize it’s not going to be pretty. And it’s just making me stress out more. But there’s nothing else to do.

Also, I’m not sure if you are aware of some of my other more personal threads. Where I had difficulty. I’m trying to go sailing on this this winter to determine if I want to keep doing it. Right now I want to throw in the towel and sell it. Don’t tell me I won’t get money for it I have offers sitting on the table right now. That I have refused.

I am so tired of the stress that this boat brings me. I can’t take this much longer. I need to get this Mast up right now or I’m just giving up. That’s the short of it.

I simply cannot take this level of stress anymore. I already had a heart attack. I’ve had enough.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

Some tabernacle ideas.
Attachment 266305Attachment 266306Attachment 266307

I guess with these pictures you are trying to make the point that the interface between the mast and the mast step extension is not that big of a deal?

Like we are over thinking it in this thread?

Because clearly, based on everything we are talking about in this thread, these tabernacles wouldn’t even work. First, they would tear right out of the deck, and second, the mast would break off where the tabernacle is immovable and the mast bends. At the place they join.

Those are the observations following what we are talking about in this thread.

But none of that happens. The tabernacles work just fine.

So your point, if I am understanding it through these pictures, is that we are over thinking this end there is probably no reason to worry about it at this level?

Based on everything people are saying in the thread, those tabernacles could never work.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I guess with these pictures you are trying to make the point that the interface between the mast and the mast step extension is not that big of a deal?

Like we are over thinking it in this thread?

Because clearly, based on everything we are talking about in this thread, these tabernacles wouldn’t even work. First, they would tear right out of the deck, and second, the mast would break off where the tabernacle is immovable and the mast bends. At the place they join.

Those are the observations following what we are talking about in this thread.

But none of that happens. The tabernacles work just fine.

So your point, if I am understanding it through these pictures, is that we are over thinking this end there is probably no reason to worry about it at this level?

Based on everything people are saying in the thread, those tabernacles could never work.

I’ll be honest, I know very little when it comes to this, but the pics do show a base with very little strengthening.
I’m guessing your mast is kind of like mine, maybe double diamonds keeping the rig straight and a forestay and a couple of swept aft shrouds?
Got me to thinking. We have a rotating rig and if we had some strong side forces on the bottom of the mast then the rig would be hard to rotate as there would be friction between the mast rotator cup and the ball? Not so, rotates freely.
Our lower diamonds terminate about 1’ above the base of the mast and I wonder if this setup relieves some of the pressure on the bottom of the mast.
As I said, just thinking........

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

I’ll be honest, I know very little when it comes to this, but the pics do show a base with very little strengthening.
I’m guessing your mast is kind of like mine, maybe double diamonds keeping the rig straight and a forestay and a couple of swept aft shrouds?
Got me to thinking. We have a rotating rig and if we had some strong side forces on the bottom of the mast then the rig would be hard to rotate as there would be friction between the mast rotator cup and the ball? Not so, rotates freely.
Our lower diamonds terminate about 1’ above the base of the mast and I wonder if this setup relieves some of the pressure on the bottom of the mast.
As I said, just thinking........

Actually, our rigs are identical. Pretty much all Catamarans have this type of rig.

I’m a little jealous of the rotating mast, but for simplicity and speed I’m going to skip that.

So my rig is exactly as you described. A forestay, two shrouds that are swept back. There is also a set of lower shrouds on mine they are a little lower than the picture I am attaching.

The double diamond spreader rig is exactly as you described. It terminates right at the base of the mast. The current base of the mast. And come to think of it, because it terminates right there, the mast can’t bend athwartship. It’s not physically possible. It can only bend fore and aft.

The only other difference with mine compared to the diagram below as I have a little bit sticking up above it. Without any support at all. Maybe 8 feet or something. I forget. There’s a little bit above it though. It doesn’t terminate at the top like the one in the diagram.

This thread is killing my brain because there are so many ideas going around at once and it seems like every single one of them has been shot down by somebody or another. Except the impossible, which is to get an identical section and do a splice. So my head really hurts. Because I do consider every single idea in these threads carefully. And every criticism. So because this thread has been a whirlwind into nothing, so is my head right now.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Except the impossible, which is to get an identical section and do a splice.

Couldn't a good fabricator who has experience with alum make a 6' or 8' section that duplicates your mast section, using yours as a pattern?

I'm asking out of curiosity - technically, can that be done? I get you can't find a section of the same design, but maybe one be made, since you only need a fairly short bit?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

Couldn't a good fabricator who has experience with alum make a 6' or 8' section that duplicates your mast section, using yours as a pattern?

I'm asking out of curiosity - technically, can that be done? I get you can't find a section of the same design, but maybe one be made, since you only need a fairly short bit?

Absolutely!

Can it be done? Yes!

Will anyone actually do it? I doubt it.

Just to get a couple brackets made, which are not done yet, has taken since June 1. And those were the best fabricators out of a dozen of them. Metal people suck. They don’t do any work. They are terrible. I’m so sick of them at this point. They take the job. But then they just don’t do it.

If you or anyone knows of a good fabricator that would actually work and actually do the job, I would be so interested in that. That would be the ultimate solution. And I need it in 4 weeks or less.

Not happening I’m sure.

[Buzzman]

Chotu. You are the one stressing yourSELF out. Take a chill pill. Meditate. Walk on the grass. Smell roses. Calm the f**k down. Or sell the boat....

If you decide to keep it, here's my 2c worth.


You are *fixated* on their being no suitable 'section' (or extrusion) that matches your older-profile mast.

THIS is the problem.

Meditate this fixation away, and look at it afresh.


How might you construct such an extension, and splice it to the mast?

Use aluminium tubing and aluminium sheet, bent/rolled to shape.

Find a welder with some spare capacity. Get the mast to them. Or find a mobile TIG welder who can come to the mast. Mohammed and the Mountain...

Weld tubes of suitable size in the four cardinal points of the mast, having first cut out the base with the four holes in it. You need to be able to get UP the inside of the mast.

Weld and rivet the tubes at least 18-30" up inside the mast.

Then take sheet ally and bend, form, roll it over the 58" 'form' you have now created.

Try taking a template off the masts side profile (i.e. the fore and aft half-section) and make a wooden/ply former to give the ally shop. Say "bend it to this shape".

Then take those bent/formed/rolled sections back to the mast, call the mobile welder and get him to weld them on.

Finally, weld a larger base to this new section that has bolt holes that can be bolted down to a hard 'base' (on top of the main beam) which is presumably pasrt of the original mast base design. Or just add a chunk of glassed over 3/4" ply to take this.

You said temporary, just for this season, to get a feel for whether you want to keep going...???

So, KISS principle. It doesn't have to last forever, just for this season.

If you can't find any ally welders, go back to the 'X' shape, build it yourself out of 1" marine ply, but extend it 3-4' up the ally mast and bend up some 1/4" ally strap, say 30mm wide, so that it follows the curve of the mast in between each of the 'wings' of the X. Rivet the ally strap to the mast and bolt to the plywood X.

Get a dock neighbour to paint the ply with epoxy while you are at the store. Come back a few days after it's finished off-gassing. Or something else that's safer for you...

Maybe also add some triangles, parallel to the deck, in between the arms of the X, and put the '4 pins' on there somehow...??? For preference, weld a wider baseplate to the existing mast base and add bolt holes for this to attach to the 'triangles'.

It need not be an 'X'. it could have six frames, not just four. So like a hex-X, if that makes sense.

One inch plywood. Bolts. Rivets.

KISS principle.

[Ballsnall]

Couple of suggestions for a tabernacle.
1. Get 4 lengths of heavy wall aluminium box or rectangular section the height of the base. Fully weld them together with a plate welded top and bottom. Minimum 1/2" plates but go 3/4" if you can and get the ends machined as there will be significant warping.

Strong and easy to fabricate.

2. Prettiest option would be have a section rolled in an oval shape slightly larger than your mast section, say 3 or 4" larger, plate both ends. You could also use pipe rather than a custom rolled section.

Sorry if these have been suggested already, also can't help with your metal worker woes, maybe look for a plate boat manufacturer near you?

You've come this far, you CAN get it done and may regret it if you don't finish, do a Nike on it!

[Chotu]

This is accurate.

Funny that you meditation, because that’s some thing I learned in Thailand over the summer. And that’s exactly what I did when I realized I was losing my freaking marbles.

Obviously this isn’t the only stress I have going on in my life. It’s just one of the largest ones. I’m not retired or anything. The marina won’t let me park overnight at the boat and my helper won’t move marinas. Stuff like that. Very stressful.

I’m not so much fixated on there not being a section that is the same, I’m just answering all of the hordes of people that tell me to get a mast section and just splice it. As if I can. I’m just responding. I’m not stuck on it. I’m way past that idea.

But I have meditated. I have had a night’s sleep thankfully, that’s enough to reset the brain for another day.

So on to responding to the majority of your post.

I’m not sure how to bend the aluminum. It’s nearly 1/4” inch thick. How would you go about bending that? Without a brake? Certainly I have the mast itself as a form. I could takeoff the template, like you said, out of wood and I could build a mold. In far less time than it would take me to even talk to a new metal guy. But I don’t know how I would get a quarter inch sheet aluminum to bend into that. Do you just pound it with a hammer? Seems like it’s not malleable enough.

You had mentioned taking a template off the mast. Bring it to the metal shop. The metal shop has had my mast since June 1. The one that seemed most promising. Since June 1 they have only cut out the pieces for my brackets for my crossbeam which they also have. That’s it. Just cut them out. Nothing else. They are all in pieces still and not welded together or welded to the crossbeam. And just last week, that very promising metal shop decided they didn’t want to do this anymore after all these months and kicked it to another guy. The other guy hasn’t even looked at it and won’t return my calls.

This is the situation I face. And I need to take this boat out in about five weeks from now. Sailing.

This is why I lean toward DIY. Like the pyramid. Things I can make. To me, that was kiss. However, your ideas would look better.

I am trying to wrap my head around them. And it’s pretty hard. Can anyone in the thread help me make sense of the quick plywood way with the x? I’m not understanding it.

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Chotu. You are the one stressing yourSELF out. Take a chill pill. Meditate. Walk on the grass. Smell roses. Calm the f**k down. Or sell the boat....

If you decide to keep it, here's my 2c worth.


You are *fixated* on their being no suitable 'section' (or extrusion) that matches your older-profile mast.

THIS is the problem.

Meditate this fixation away, and look at it afresh.


How might you construct such an extension, and splice it to the mast?

Use aluminium tubing and aluminium sheet, bent/rolled to shape.

Find a welder with some spare capacity. Get the mast to them. Or find a mobile TIG welder who can come to the mast. Mohammed and the Mountain...

Weld tubes of suitable size in the four cardinal points of the mast, having first cut out the base with the four holes in it. You need to be able to get UP the inside of the mast.

Weld and rivet the tubes at least 18-30" up inside the mast.

Then take sheet ally and bend, form, roll it over the 58" 'form' you have now created.

Try taking a template off the masts side profile (i.e. the fore and aft half-section) and make a wooden/ply former to give the ally shop. Say "bend it to this shape".

Then take those bent/formed/rolled sections back to the mast, call the mobile welder and get him to weld them on.

Finally, weld a larger base to this new section that has bolt holes that can be bolted down to a hard 'base' (on top of the main beam) which is presumably pasrt of the original mast base design. Or just add a chunk of glassed over 3/4" ply to take this.

You said temporary, just for this season, to get a feel for whether you want to keep going...???

So, KISS principle. It doesn't have to last forever, just for this season.

If you can't find any ally welders, go back to the 'X' shape, build it yourself out of 1" marine ply, but extend it 3-4' up the ally mast and bend up some 1/4" ally strap, say 30mm wide, so that it follows the curve of the mast in between each of the 'wings' of the X. Rivet the ally strap to the mast and bolt to the plywood X.

Get a dock neighbour to paint the ply with epoxy while you are at the store. Come back a few days after it's finished off-gassing. Or something else that's safer for you...

Maybe also add some triangles, parallel to the deck, in between the arms of the X, and put the '4 pins' on there somehow...??? For preference, weld a wider baseplate to the existing mast base and add bolt holes for this to attach to the 'triangles'.

It need not be an 'X'. it could have six frames, not just four. So like a hex-X, if that makes sense.

One inch plywood. Bolts. Rivets.

KISS principle.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Ballsnall

Couple of suggestions for a tabernacle.
1. Get 4 lengths of heavy wall aluminium box or rectangular section the height of the base. Fully weld them together with a plate welded top and bottom. Minimum 1/2" plates but go 3/4" if you can and get the ends machined as there will be significant warping.

Strong and easy to fabricate.

2. Prettiest option would be have a section rolled in an oval shape slightly larger than your mast section, say 3 or 4" larger, plate both ends. You could also use pipe rather than a custom rolled section.

Sorry if these have been suggested already, also can't help with your metal worker woes, maybe look for a plate boat manufacturer near you?

You've come this far, you CAN get it done and may regret it if you don't finish, do a Nike on it!

Yes. I could have so many things done. The problem is no one will do it. All good ideas. But nobody will do any work on metal.

So, I need something I can do myself. Now.

I have one more set of welders that I can try out once I arrive at the boat this week. They are some Mexican guys who did the welding on my truck bed. They are the only people that actually did any work. Out of the dozen, no make that 13 metal shops. They are the 13th I guess.

They will not cut out anything. They expect me to bring pre-cut metal to them. Or they can actually go on site for some things. They will do welding. So I’m hoping I can get them to weld the pieces together for the brackets for my cross beam. Which has been sitting around at the second best metal shop since June 1.

Maybe, just maybe, they might know somebody that can roll the aluminum to do a real splice on the mast. I’m not holding my breath though. I’m trying to get an option together here that I can do without anybody’s assistance. Which is what the whole thread was about to begin with. If you go back to the first post. The pyramid.

I need something I can get done in a week. Or less.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So, I need something I can do myself. Now.

So buy a MIG welder and get it done, otherwise just fab it out of plywood with a heavy layup schedule.

Maybe, just maybe, they might know somebody that can roll the aluminum to do a real splice on the mast.

Forget the splice, if you can't find a section of mast then it's not something you can fabricate.

I need something I can get done in a week. Or less.

Forget bolted alloy, find a welder or do it yourself with laminated plywood which are used as mast supports anyway.

[Chotu]

Oh my god, I can’t believe it!

Apparently this latest metal guy that got my project by default he’s going to start it today. He’s going to start some welding.

I might just have some brackets for a Crossbeam by next week.

I’m going to go full steam with this guy and see if I can give him the Mast work. see if he will do it.

If I can get him to work, I will do a real splice. I will see if he can weld together four curved pieces to match the Mast profile and then a smaller diameter piece to go inside the mast and do a real actual splice.

I don’t want to stop the conversation here, because the quick and dirty DIY could still be needed.

If anything, I can get out of the area and go somewhere where there are people doing metal work that are going to actually get it done. I need a Mast to do that. I don’t want to motor that distance with my mast on deck.