Considering eye thimbles and sleeves for standing rigging.

[ahun]

Don't overthink it, especially on a small boat like that. This is my backstay:

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Cal 20? Don't have the proper swaging tool for SS?



I'm not a proponent of Dyneema for standing rigging in many cases, but this is one of those case where you should take the time to learn about it. I would do that before compromising with wire rigging terminators.

I'm thinking the same thing. Plenty strong for the application, easy to splice, don't need fancy tools or sleeves, and on a boat that size very easy to do. Probably cheaper too.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by cyrano138

How heavy was that boat, approximately? The Cal 20 weighs about 2000 lbs. Just curious.

3800#, 1100# ballast as I recall

[cyrano138]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I'm thinking the same thing. Plenty strong for the application, easy to splice, don't need fancy tools or sleeves, and on a boat that size very easy to do. Probably cheaper too.

The preliminary research I did was pretty discouraging. Even if I knew how to splice, there is apparently not much agreement about how to account for stretch (or creep?), and some concern about UV over time. Maybe there's not much to all that but I feel like unless it was a significant cost saving measure I'm not sure it's worth learning a new set of skills. I figured I can do the wire rigging for 700-900 including the tool, turnbuckles, and chain plates. I found a spool of 5/32 (250') for 100 bucks and the sleeves, and the sleeves and thimbles should be less that fifty bucks.



I think I'm inclined to agree with the guy above who said I'm overthinking it. Maybe that's just because it's what I want to hear but both the Nigel Calder book and John Vigor's seaworthy offshore sailboat book say it's only a problem on larger boats. Calder said problems ensue when the wire gets bigger than 1/4" and Vigor said "shouldn't be trusted except on small boats." He certainly thinks the Cal 20 is seaworthy and I'm pretty sure no one would say it's not small.

[smacksman]

If the budget is that tight go for 7x7 galvanised of a working load similar to your boat spec. Splice round a galvanised thimble or use your crimp thingys. Soak in raw linseed oil in the off season. Coat in boiled linseed oil before the new season and allow to dry. After a few seasons of this, the wire looks like rod rigging! I used this for many thousands of miles over 15 years on my old gaffer and the wire was as good as it was made. Insurance companies would have no idea what I was talking about of course.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by smacksman

Soak in raw linseed oil in the off season. Coat in boiled linseed oil before the new season and allow to dry.

After that, one might "Worm and Parcel with the lay, turn and Serve the other way".
Then use Pine Tar or paint.
Aye, a proper job.

[BBill]

Yes you are overthinking it. I've had two large boats with nicopressed standing rigging and a handfull of trailer boats with it.

The two larger boats were an H28 and a vintage 42' gaff ketch. The H28 had 1x19ss with 2 cu sleeves each end. Sailed 2 yrs in the Bahamas and zero problems. The rigging was 6 yrs old when I bought the boat and went cruising.
The 42 was 7x galv wire with fiber core with pressed sleeves. No problems but thats all I remember.

Nicopress recommeneds cu or ss for swaging so I wouldn't use anything else. Using a larger thimble than rated for the wire is the wrong answer. It lets the strands open up and wire flattens. The last swaging tool I would use is the two handle because its harder to be consistent. The bench mounted ones are better and less prone to operator error. I've used both so that's my experience. For 1/4" and under the SF Tool Co swage is hard to beat. It's calibrated and won't let you squeeze too much. This is my go to while the two handle job stays in my tool chest gathering dust. You have to use a gauge on the swage to measure the crimp no matter which tool you use.

So the short if it is nicopress sleeves work fine. I do 2 cu sleeves on 1x19 as a safety factor. The only rig that ever failed with nicropress was a Hobie cat and the wire failed at the top of the sleeve...that boat was sailed hard off the beach and the wire weakened from being bent hard at the sleeve. It came from the factory with nicopress if that means anything.

[cyrano138]

Originally Posted by BBill

Yes you are overthinking it. I've had two large boats with nicopressed standing rigging and a handfull of trailer boats with it.

The two larger boats were an H28 and a vintage 42' gaff ketch. The H28 had 1x19ss with 2 cu sleeves each end. Sailed 2 yrs in the Bahamas and zero problems. The rigging was 6 yrs old when I bought the boat and went cruising.
The 42 was 7x galv wire with fiber core with pressed sleeves. No problems but thats all I remember.

Nicopress recommeneds cu or ss for swaging so I wouldn't use anything else. Using a larger thimble than rated for the wire is the wrong answer. It lets the strands open up and wire flattens. The last swaging tool I would use is the two handle because its harder to be consistent. The bench mounted ones are better and less prone to operator error. I've used both so that's my experience. For 1/4" and under the SF Tool Co swage is hard to beat. It's calibrated and won't let you squeeze too much. This is my go to while the two handle job stays in my tool chest gathering dust. You have to use a gauge on the swage to measure the crimp no matter which tool you use.

So the short if it is nicopress sleeves work fine. I do 2 cu sleeves on 1x19 as a safety factor. The only rig that ever failed with nicropress was a Hobie cat and the wire failed at the top of the sleeve...that boat was sailed hard off the beach and the wire weakened from being bent hard at the sleeve. It came from the factory with nicopress if that means anything.

Did you use plain Cu, or tinned Cu? Most manufacturers claim that their sleeves will retain 90% of the wire strength, so I assume concerns about failure (beyond wrapping the wire around a thimble) are concerns that might come from galvanic corrosion interfering with the sleeve's ability to hold. I know tinned copper is used in wiring because of the corrosion resistance, but I don't know if the tin would be more likely to cause galvanic corrosion then the bare copper against stainless steel.


I appreciate the advice and will avoid the larger thimbles. I still may go up a size in wire but for now keep the original tangs and chain plates sizing those up as I get a little more money. Shouldn't be too hard to drop the mast when I need to.



Also, I appreciate the posters above recommending off-season treatments but my boat will be in the water year-round without an off-season.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by cyrano138

Did you use plain Cu, or tinned Cu? Most manufacturers claim that their sleeves will retain 90% of the wire strength, so I assume concerns about failure (beyond wrapping the wire around a thimble) are concerns that might come from galvanic corrosion interfering with the sleeve's ability to hold. I know tinned copper is used in wiring because of the corrosion resistance, but I don't know if the tin would be more likely to cause galvanic corrosion then the bare copper against stainless steel.


I appreciate the advice and will avoid the larger thimbles. I still may go up a size in wire but for now keep the original tangs and chain plates sizing those up as I get a little more money. Shouldn't be too hard to drop the mast when I need to.



Also, I appreciate the posters above recommending off-season treatments but my boat will be in the water year-round without an off-season.

If memory is right those boats had plain copper but that was a long time ago. I used tinned cu from west marine on several trailer boats because thats what they had in stock but a few months in saltwater and it cosmetically looks like plain copper... The hardest part is wrapping the wire around the thimble tight enough. If you don't have it lined up correctly the thimble will be at an angle...my main reason for not using the handle type crimp tool. 1/4" is the largest I've crimped and was way harder to wrap than 3/16 and 5/32.

[cyrano138]

Thank you for the help there. I may just go with regular copper. 5/32 is the largest I'll be using so hopefully it goes smoothly. If the two handled tool doesn't work I'll change it out. I don't have a bench to work at so something that mounts is a whole new set of problems.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Up until they went out of business, the Wilcox-Crittenden outfit produced solid thimbles, (with suitable holes for rigging pins,) out of cast bronze.
However, the real deal was the bronze "poured socket" fittings for several wire sizes.
Those would be perfect for your job.
Actually, a poured socket has much to recommend it, reusable without any extra parts and easy DIY with little chance of failure.
I believe there are a couple of outfits that still make them.

One of the few end terminals which provide 100% of wire strength and long term durability.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

One of the few end terminals which provide 100% of wire strength and long term durability.

I bought a 1938 cutter with those poured socked and they are huge compared to everything else. There was a company yrs back that tried to duplicate poured sockets with modern materials...called CastLock or something like that. Same method of corkscrewing the wire, bending the tips and filling their SS socket with epoxy instead of lead. I rigged a 34 Islander with them but never heard of the product again.