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Old 20-08-2021, 09:36   #1
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Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

I think I know the answer to this but you guys are more expert than me.

Ill pose the question and then give a fuller explanation. I have a Perkins 4107 engine with a TMP gearbox in a 40' motor sailer.

Today:
The boat is in the water and the bilge is black with oil. The head is off and the cylinders exposed. I have put miracle oil in each pot and left it for 6 weeks. I returned today to hit the pistons with a lump hammer and a piece of wood to free it up. They wont budge so I thought I'd pour some miracle oil down the pushrod holes to lubricate the bottom, All i can hear is a pouring dripping noise, I cant see where its going but I suspect its not going in the sump but straight into the bilges.
Is this normal or is it totally f***ed - as in totally failed ?

How it got in this state?
Read on if you have the time. Im shortening a very long, three year story. Returning from a day long motor sailing journey we went aground in the harbour, (No it is not 2m clear low water springs, I draw 1.2m) my crew left and I put the boat away after dark and came home, it was very late. I didnt add grease to the stern gland as I was exhausted, I would be back in a few days and I have dual bilge pumps and full batteries.

Next day I was hospitalised and two weeks later was the start of a long journey of diagnosis. Two months after the trip I received a call from the harbour telling me my bow was low in the water . I went and found 18" of water and a submersed engine. The bilge pumps had failed and the electrics shorted and died. Pumping out I changed the oil in the engine three times and it started and ran for 15 minutes.

But I was running out of energy and I was diagnosed with a heart condition. My family barred me from the boat and next time I went back was after my triple heart bypass and recovery, which was around 18 months later. The engine wouldnt turn. I removed the starter, that was fine, I couldnt turn the crankshaft so I struggled and removed the head over the next few months. I poured in miracle oil and left it to sit for a few weeks as I am awaiting a new mast (Different story same trip) and I had all my electrics stolen in the harbour (Another story). So here I am, electrics replaced, new bilge pump systems, GSM alarm and head removed and soaked (Engine, not mine) Now go back to the question at the beginning marked in red.
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Old 20-08-2021, 09:40   #2
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

On plenty of engines I've been able to hear oil dripping down from the top end back to the oil pan after shutdown or while filling after an oil change. So when pouring in oil up top, I'm not surprised you can hear it dripping.
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Old 20-08-2021, 16:11   #3
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

Hi FionaJC, so sorry to hear about your health problems and the chaos that results from not being physically able to deal with everyday demands.
About your engine, I’m going for totaled but possibly repairable......this engine does not have a “Lazarus moment” in its future, more likely Phoenix. The gearbox might be ok but needs to be attended to with some urgency
Get a hard nosed old mechanic to take a look at it and tell you the truth. At least in the U.K, home of the Perkins , you can find an engine easily on the second hand market or an abundance of tractor mechanics who know this engine from years of rebuilding experience. You also have “BETA marine” nearby if you need to re power.
Best of luck with everything.
Pete.
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Old 20-08-2021, 21:31   #4
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

At the least you should remove the pistons, hone the sleeves and put in new rings.

You can buy a engine kit (new sleeves, pistons, rings, bearings & gaskets) for about $500 from: https://www.parts4engines.com/
With the pistons stuck, there will be some damage to the rings and sleeves. If you get the pistons free, the engine will probably smoke and burn some oil.
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Old 20-08-2021, 23:09   #5
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

Fiona,
Sorry to hear you hit cardiac reef, but better days are ahead. Its been 14 years since my triple bypass, but they have been good years and the heart is still running on all cylinders.

Dealing with the boat, you need to decide if you are type A, handy, with more time than money, or type B, with a bit of money you want to spend on a boat you love and want to go sailing soon, or type C, start over.

One of the nicer things about the 4107 is the wet sleeves, which makes a full rebuild easier. One of the not so nice things is its propensity to spew oil all over the bilge. I pulled a running 4108 out of my boat, sold it for $900, and put in a Beta 50. The Beta cost me about $16,000 to DIY and was one of the better decisions I have made.

If you like oily bilges I see a reconditioned 4107 long block on fleabay UK for L1550.

The next question is if you put in a new mast, new engine, and new electronics in the boat you have, will it tick all your boxes? Do you want to take it offshore cruising, and how much is it going to set you back to get it fitted out with serious autopilot, solar, comms, safety gear, dodger/bimini?
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Old 21-08-2021, 01:01   #6
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

The bores will be rusted under the pistons no amount of miricule oils or concoctions will fix this problem ,engine out full rebuild is you best bet ,or re engine ,not a lot of choises .good luck .
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Old 21-08-2021, 05:33   #7
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Fiona,

Sorry to hear you hit cardiac reef, but better days are ahead. Its been 14 years since my triple bypass, but they have been good years and the heart is still running on all cylinders.

Dealing with the boat, you need to decide if you are type A, handy, with more time than money, or type B, with a bit of money you want to spend on a boat you love and want to go sailing soon, or type C, start over.

...put in a Beta 50. The Beta cost me about $16,000 to DIY and was one of the better decisions I have made.
Don,

From Fiona's past interactions on the Forum, I can already answer this: she is top-shelf, Grade A handy (don't know about the more-time-than-money part) and whatever work needs doing, as high and as far as possible, Fiona will do it herself (this is probably why her family nixxed the boat until she properly healed, I'm guessing )

Fiona, without knowing a damn thing about the Perkins' true state, it sounds as if Don's suggestion of saving yourself a lot of long-term grief by getting a Beta 50 would be the way to go.

I think any engine that's been immersed in saltwater for a time is only going to provide continuing headaches - even after/if you manage this initial fix.

Fair winds from across the Pond,
Glad you survived that cardiac reef!
LittleWing77
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Old 21-08-2021, 08:32   #8
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

the 4017 basic engine block is on millions of massey ferguson tractors all over the world , you should be able to get one somewhere cheap. When I had a Paragon transmission, I could adjust it with a hammer and chisel, much more robust than the miserable Hurth
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Old 21-08-2021, 09:34   #9
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

6 weeks and no movement is not good. IDK what miracle oil is but on airplanes, in the USA, the only allowed penetrant is Kroil. Best stuff I've even used.

Pounding on the top is'nt going to do much IMHO unless you've disconnected the piston rods as well. What I have had luck on with my old Perkins 4-107 was to connect a 1/2 inch breaker bar to a large socket and put that on the crankshaft. Then, get a piece of metal pipe (EMT is cheap and works great) slip that over the breaker bar handle and push/pull as hard as you can back and forth. If you can get any little tiny bit of movement started you will likely be able to get it to turn over. This process may take weeks btw. Keep the cylinders full of penetrant.

My concern now tho TBH is everything else. Bearings. If those got wet.....

It may be time to tear into the engine and see exactly what you're dealing with. You could disconnect the piston rods, check the bearings and they look ok then figure out which piston is seized. It's probably only one. At that point you bang the sleeve and the piston out and replace but if you're that far into it and you can get a rebuild kit for $500, do them all and be done with it.

My 2 cents worth.

You might also look around for a used engine. I see them for sale and that could be a better/cheaper option.
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Old 21-08-2021, 15:50   #10
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

I would second Cpt Mark's advice. I used this to free up my Beta recently. I didn't use Kroil though just diesel. I would stick to using a Perkins as well.
The yacht I have just bought was from someone who was injured in a car accident and the yacht ended up in a similar state as yours. The first thing I did was to install a dedicated bilge pump system for when the boat is unattended. I have a solar panel and controller feeding a separate battery and a Water witch electronic switch activates the pump [800gph]. The battery is just an ordinary car battery and the solar panel is about 50 watts. The heart of the system though is the Water witch switch which is about the best $100 you can possibly spend on a yacht.

https://www.whitworths.com.au/swch-waterwitch-mini
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Old 21-08-2021, 18:24   #11
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

Those switches look pretty cool and so much better than traditional switches
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Old 22-08-2021, 00:16   #12
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Re: Sound of running fluid in a seized Perkins 4107 engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FionaJC View Post
Two months after the trip I received a call from the harbour telling me my bow was low in the water . I went and found 18" of water and a submersed engine. The bilge pumps had failed and the electrics shorted and died. Pumping out I changed the oil in the engine three times and it started and ran for 15 minutes.

But I was running out of energy and I was diagnosed with a heart condition. My family barred me from the boat and next time I went back was after my triple heart bypass and recovery, which was around 18 months later. The engine wouldnt turn. I removed the starter, that was fine, I couldnt turn the crankshaft .

When you pulled the starter motor off was there any water in the bell housing? I know you had the motor running for 15 minutes but if there is water left in the bell housing it can cause bits to rust together. On my Beta the bell housing was full of water after being submerged. No water got in the engine though I did soak the pistons with diesel. I rocked the big nut on the crankshaft pulley gently over a few days and eventually the flywheel came free. You need lots of leverage, plan on about 6 feet of pipe.
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