Perkins 404D-22 Making a horrible popping sound.

[Hoohaa]

Boat is moored in Fivedock Bay Sydney. I am nit there today and the mechanic has the head with him.
I will probably head out there tomorrow as I need to measure up for some sort of gantry to lift the engine.
Just a question on the gearbox. Do I need to drain all of the gear oil before I disconnect the engine?

[Three Sisters]

Originally Posted by Hoohaa

Prognosis?


I am leaning a little the other way, but I am no mechanic. I think it was running fine up until the time that it was not started for 4 months. Although it has always required allot of cranking to get it started when she is cold so I suspect that we have had the problems with the valves for a very long time, hence the starting difficulties.
I could have a crack at fixing it myself. but I would do it with out removing it from the boat. I have the room to jack it up and drop the sump and I could put a honing tool on my drill and give it a hone. but I have never done anything like this before.
Cost would still be around
$1700 - head removal, recon and reinstall.
$600 - 4 new injectors.
$300 - Extra parts I havn't thought of.
$1000 - Rebuild kit
$300 - New water pump (may as well) mechanics recommendation
$200 - New fuel pump (I think I need one) mechanics recommendation.
Blood sweat and tears..
And here's hoping that I don't have to touch the injector pump..
Most of these prices are pretty rough and in Aus dollars.
Total about $4100
I don't really know how to this work but I do fortunately have good internet and am an avid Youtube watcher. I can also rent or buy whatever tools I don't already have. It would be a battle for me but on the plus side I would learn allot.
Is there any way to test to for a crack or do you have to see it?



..

Removing the piston assembly with connecting rod requires care to protect the crankshaft journals. You're bearing shells will be there too as mentioned by another poster. Going back in, remember the new rings may want to bounce all over the place. The process will notably involve reaching under the block around the crankshaft while keeping the rings in place and steadying the connecting rod. Cleanliness is paramount. So being the humans that we are, someone, somewhere, sometime said, hey lets take the block out and turn it upside down for this feat. Simplified when time to torque the rod caps, too. Oiling system maintenance becomes easier with less of that ole feeley-touchy.

Is the whole deal called an in-frame rebuild ?



The list of established diesel mechanics on the site is long. They'll be around if you need direction.

[a64pilot]

If your going to do it yourself and put all that time and work into it, replace the oil pump. Many people don’t and well, should.

[jimbunyard]

With a little shopping you can probably find a new industrial engine for the same or maybe less than rebuilding. Fifteen minutes looking under "used perkins 404D-22" yielded results for new engines from 7600-4200 USD, at which point I stopped looking. Don't know about Australian duties or currency conversions, but even with sea freight at 1000.00 US (a knowledgeable forwarder can make all the difference in the world), 5200.00 might make sense. If you part the old engine out, or better yet (if you have the room), keep key parts for spares, it might make even more sense...

https://www.dieselenginetrader.com/e.../404D_22/96102

Of course you'd have to make sure all your ancillary components were good...

[Hoohaa]

That's very interesting. I will Google soon .
I have just spent the morning measuring up to try to figure out how to get the engines in and out.
I took some close up video of the block and cylinders if you guy's want to see.
Hmmm i wonder what percentage of the population would find this video interesting??
https://youtu.be/dbWjtPgWz0I

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Hoohaa

That's very interesting. I will Google soon .
I have just spent the morning measuring up to try to figure out how to get the engines in and out.
I took some close up video of the block and cylinders if you guy's want to see.
Hmmm i wonder what percentage of the population would find this video interesting??
https://youtu.be/dbWjtPgWz0I

Jeff, sorry to hear of this latest prob. If you were to go down the rebuild path (min or full) the easiest way to get the engine in and out would be remove all marinising bits, pumps etc, gearbox and flywheel to remove block from the boat. Have a good mechanic do his bit and reassemble block to the short engine stage, return to boat and complete assembly in situ. If you feel that a new engine is the way to go it will definitely be more difficult to get the new one into position but not impossible.
FWIW I believe that the perkins is a very strong engine widely used elsewhere and that parts are available.
Cheers and all the best.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by _andi_

Depends on your plans for the future. Maybe lightly touch it up, slap it back together with new/refurbed injectors and organize a rebuild for the off season.

Parts are quite cheap in GB. Get an ag/car/... shop to rebuild it.

https://www.parts4engines.com/perkin...-overhaul-kit/

My 2 cents -

Having looked at your video (I found it interesting anyway!) and the pictures, I agree with this post and would use this sort of rebuild kit. It is realistically priced and contains all you need. If you can find a friendly workshop to do the rebore of the cylinders, reseat the valves in the head and maybe put it back together, it really shouldn't cost too much. You probably won't need a regrind of the crank, (look/measure first), so original or original size bearing shells should be fine. New pump impellor and some refurbished injectors and off you go. Virtually a new engine...

good luck

[Hoohaa]

I have spent the morning researching and getting a few prices.
The most interesting one is from the Perkins dealer who can supply the latest version of my engine for 45% cheaper that the equivalent marine engines.
My Current engine is a 104-22 50HP Perkins and the new model is the 404D-22 GN Perkins at 50hp also.
Sorry for the confusion with the engine types I have confirmed that my engine is the earlier 104, not the 404 but as I understand it they are virtually the same engine.
Of course this new engine at that price is not yet marinised but I allready have the heat exchanger ect.
On advice from my mechanic, I am going to get the heat exchanger properly serviced and tested before a lay money down on this engine.

What I really need to know is.
Will the current heat exchanger bolt straight onto the new motor. ie. have they changed the flange and bolt hole locations ect. I have contacted the heat exchanger suppliers here in OZ and they are looking into it for me.
Also I will be needing a water pump">raw water pump and this unit is supplied with a dirty big radiator which will have to be removed.
What else would I need to marinise this engine?

[Hoohaa]

Another quick one.
In the specs for the engines the rotaion is quoted as
Anti clockwise from the fly wheel end (404)
Clockwise viewed from the timing (104)
Is this one and the same?

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Hoohaa

I have spent the morning researching and getting a few prices.
The most interesting one is from the Perkins dealer who can supply the latest version of my engine for 45% cheaper that the equivalent marine engines.
My Current engine is a 104-22 50HP Perkins and the new model is the 404D-22 GN Perkins at 50hp also.
Sorry for the confusion with the engine types I have confirmed that my engine is the earlier 104, not the 404 but as I understand it they are virtually the same engine.
Of course this new engine at that price is not yet marinised but I allready have the heat exchanger ect.
On advice from my mechanic, I am going to get the heat exchanger properly serviced and tested before a lay money down on this engine.

What I really need to know is.
Will the current heat exchanger bolt straight onto the new motor. ie. have they changed the flange and bolt hole locations ect. I have contacted the heat exchanger suppliers here in OZ and they are looking into it for me.
Also I will be needing a raw water pump and this unit is supplied with a dirty big radiator which will have to be removed.
What else would I need to marinise this engine?

You just switch all the marinizing bits (including the r/w pump) from the old engine to the new one, so you'll need all the gaskets to do that. And you might as well replace all the hoses while you're at it...

For the compatibility between the 104 and the 404, you'll need to get a knowledgeable, qualified, trusted source to verify this. A good parts, sales or service man from the Perkins dealer might be the best place to find one, but you have to get someone who knows what they're talking about to be sure.

For instance, you indicate that you have a 104-22 engine, which requires, according to the internet, a 3681v516 exhaust manifold gasket that looks like this, with exhaust port bolts canted to each other



But it looks from your video like your engine has vertically arranged bolt holes which would use the 404 gasket 135996780, which looks like this



which might indicate that there has been an inter-model change somewhere down the line...

My instinct would be that the swap will work, but as you say you must verify before putting down your money.

If it turns out that the swap won't work, I wouldn't give up. Given the strong mining interests over there, it is very likely that someone has an exact (or exact enough) engine on the shelf somewhere near you.

On the same note, that new radiator and attaching components are worth something to someone and their sale could be used to offset some other cost...


The rotation appears to reverse when viewed from opposite ends; the 104 and 404 are the same.

[Hoohaa]

Thanks Jim
It does look like the second one. I will keep digging. Thanks.

[Hoohaa]

Here's an update.
I have looked long and hard at the Perkins option and once you add in the raw water pump, engine mounts and possible heat exchanger you are sitting 9K before the heat exchanger. You finish up with a new motor attached to a bit of an unknown quantity in the Heat Exchanger, elbow and gearbox.
So I have all but made the decision to go new.
These are my choices which will fit down my companionway.

Nanni N4.50 50hp.
Beta Marine 50hP
Yanmah 4JH5E 54hp

Money aside as they are all within $250 of each other. Which would be your choice of engine here??

[a64pilot]

Way more to it than what will fit down the companionway.
Are you going to do the install to include modifying / rebuilding the engine bed etc? If so try to find out which of your options will fit best as to engine mounting and drive shaft height etc.
It’s my understanding that Beta is better to go to for a repower as they know what it takes to take out brand X engine and install theirs, but not having done it myself that is all second hand info.

[Hoohaa]

The engine bed is going to be refurbished as the current condition is not great.
I have a mechanic who is going to install and assist with the new bed.
We have a fair amount of room for the install so it will come down to what can fit down the companionway.The engine mount dimensions are almost the same.
But the heights from underside of sump to gearbox center 187mm (Beta) and 121mm (Yanmar) are the main differences. I am almost certain we can make either work.

I was onboard a neighbouring boat which has just had a Beta installed. It looks great and it looked very easy to maintain. But the Yanmar also looks easy to maintain and from what I have read are the better choice.. But I haven't made my decision yet.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Hoohaa

Here's an update.
I have looked long and hard at the Perkins option and once you add in the raw water pump, engine mounts and possible heat exchanger you are sitting 9K before the heat exchanger. You finish up with a new motor attached to a bit of an unknown quantity in the Heat Exchanger, elbow and gearbox.
So I have all but made the decision to go new.
These are my choices which will fit down my companionway.

Nanni N4.50 50hp.
Beta Marine 50hP
Yanmah 4JH5E 54hp

Money aside as they are all within $250 of each other. Which would be your choice of engine here??

Jeff, hi I would definitely recommend a kubota based conversion, great motors. Have you looked at the offerings of John Wichard, Wichard marine from the northern beaches, he uses the Kubota engine and for what it's worth I think it's a better conversion than the Betta but the betta is definitely a good offering.
Cheers and all the best.