Perkins 4.108 - Rebuild or ???

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by stormalong

I believe that the current Volvo marine product line is marinized Perkins engines. Find the equivalent Perkins and get their service manual and parts list. That will cover everything but the marinization parts.

The 400 series Perkins engines at introduction were only sold to OEMs like Volvo, not to retail customers, and the parts were similarly restricted, but that has changed.

The engines are not Perkins-manufactured engines; they are Shibauru engines that are marketed by Perkins. The Volvo-Penta D2-40 is built on the Perkins 404D-15, which is actually a Shibauru S744L-D I believe. Perkins is selling at least some parts for the 404D-15 to the public; I found a full gasket and seals kit at a very reasonable price ($79.17-$110.84, depending on if rear crankshaft seal included), but the full overhaul kit was listed as the Volvo D2-40, not Perkins 404D-15, kit (at a Perkins dealer - it seems that V-P are the main customer for the 404D-15). I suspect that the Perkins price of $488.22 for the overhaul kit (gaskets, seals, pistons, bearings) is a lot less than Volvo's.

There are digital copies of much of Volvo's Service Manual (D1-13A to D2-40F) on line, as well as the Installation Manual (D1-13 to D2-75).

Greg

[Tillikum]

The obvious questions are:


1. How many hours on the generator?
2. how was it stored?
3. Why was it taken out of service as a generator?
4. How often was it run, and how long did it sit after being taken out of service?
5. Did it belong to a person/organization with a "throw-away" attitude?
6. Any evidence of basic maintenance such as dates on oil filters or signs of frequent oil drains, filter changes or refills?
7. Look at the nuts and bolts; which ones have had a wrench on them and why?
8. How does the fuel tank look? Filter look like it's ever been changed?
9. Compression/leak down test if engine is run-able?
10. Smokey? Running temps normal?

Etc. etc.

If the oil is not brand new and clear, take a sample and have it professionally analyzed. This should show if there are signs of failure such as high metal content in the oil. Any engine offered with fresh oil is one to walk away from: they're probably hiding either failure or lack of maintenance, or both.

If it passes on the above questions, pull the pan and have a good look. Pull the valve cover off and check the valve clearances with a feeler gauge.

The photos don't inspire confidence. Where did all the oil staining/sludge on the front end originate? Overall does not look well taken care of.

Before removing injectors, blow loose dirt away and cover the holes when removed. Had the injectors been removed recently judging from the nuts holding them in, or perhaps one or two in particular??

A used engine needs to viewed like a crime scene: look at everything before removing anything.

From where it is now, I'd say you'd be wasting your time and playing roulette to install that engine without at least having the injection pump and injectors tested and preferably rebuilt by a reputable shop.

Of course, the reality is that the engine it's going to replace may be in similar or even better condition and is at least a presumably known quantity(?) whereas this one is not(?) Advisable to apply above steps as appropriate before spending huge amounts of time and money pulling and replacing an engine.

Before anyone gets excited about a smokey engine it'd be wise to run it on straight SeaFoam for a minute or two then let sit for a few days, and repeat. Years of infrequent running, condensation, short, cold runs and general neglect can make an apparent dog out of an engine that may be in excellent mechanical condition and just need some proper maintenance and regular "workouts".


Etc. etc.

[btompkins]

1. How many hours on the generator?

Unknown. I was told that the current owners have only a couple hundred hours on. The previous owners unknown but they think they only used the boat in the summers around RI, and liked to plug in, from the logs. I'm estimating 2500, but who knows really?

2. how was it stored?

Was recently removed from the boat.

3. Why was it taken out of service as a generator?

They couldn't find parts on the genset side.

4. How often was it run, and how long did it sit after being taken out of service?

Not sure, I believe a season.

5. Did it belong to a person/organization with a "throw-away" attitude?

No, they seemed to do regular maintenance.

6. Any evidence of basic maintenance such as dates on oil filters or signs of frequent oil drains, filter changes or refills?

Yep.

7. Look at the nuts and bolts; which ones have had a wrench on them and why?
8. How does the fuel tank look? Filter look like it's ever been changed?
9. Compression/leak down test if engine is run-able?
Will do this asap.

10. Smokey? Running temps normal?

The previous owners report no smoke, but a little soot around the exhaust.


Thanks for all your advice! I will do all the things you suggested.

[btompkins]

Originally Posted by Searles

The governor is inside the injection pump and if the unit was a genset from new it maybe fitted with a pump set internally for max load at 1800 rpm this could also include the camshaft and smaller injectors ,the info will be available from genset builder, Just saying. Good luck ⚓️👍

Ah.. I've sent the injectors off. I do have another injection pump from my other motor I could use I suppose. Any way to determine if this has an internal governor set to 1800?

[btompkins]

Also, generally, I enjoy working on motors and figuring this stuff out. I'm fortunate enough to have a nice cozy garage and lots of time on my hands due to Covid.

I think that the benefits of rebuilding this thing and knowing how to fix the engine, and properly maintain it seriously outweigh the benefits of purchasing new. These stories of volvo not selling parts sounds awful. (not that volvo is the only choice, but...). I'm a void the warranty and take it all apart kind of guy.. (fun story : I'm a software engineer and I removed the back of my laptop in the apple store once and they almost **** a brick). If I can't do some of it myself I'm not happy.

Someday when I have all the $ in the world, I'll get a big boat with all the new stuff, but for now, I'm happy to tinker.

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by btompkins

I think that the benefits of rebuilding this thing and knowing how to fix the engine, and properly maintain it seriously outweigh the benefits of purchasing new.

Absolutely right. As long as it is done carefully. Worth having a spare too, if you have room for it. If it was salt water cooled and you keep the block, seal off the jacket openings and fill it with straight anti-freeze (not pre-mix) before you put it in storage.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by btompkins

Also, generally, I enjoy working on motors and figuring this stuff out. I'm fortunate enough to have a nice cozy garage and lots of time on my hands due to Covid.

I think that the benefits of rebuilding this thing and knowing how to fix the engine, and properly maintain it seriously outweigh the benefits of purchasing new. These stories of volvo not selling parts sounds awful. (not that volvo is the only choice, but...). I'm a void the warranty and take it all apart kind of guy.. (fun story : I'm a software engineer and I removed the back of my laptop in the apple store once and they almost **** a brick). If I can't do some of it myself I'm not happy.

Someday when I have all the $ in the world, I'll get a big boat with all the new stuff, but for now, I'm happy to tinker.

Yes can see your reasoning but I wouldnt rebuild it if it does not need it. As stated earlier, best to do leakdown & compression tests first.
Not that I know Perkins engines but have heard enough rear seal stories to know they can be a Pita so good idea to do that.
You can always rebuild the takeout one if you need a project.

[alaskanviking]

Is it a marine generator 4-108? Or a land industrial generator?

I'm in the process of a 4-108 rebuild now., And have been tormenting over the thoughts of swapping in a modern engine. Had the yard in San Diego not been so expensive I would have a different engine. I am a diesel mechanic, primarily cummins.

So first - the generator and other industrial Perkins 4-108 engines have single valve springs. They don't rev as high 2800 or 3000 toms ,but I will have to look that up in my books later. You also have to look at the build sheet as some have hyperuelitic (low expansion) pistons, and crankshafts that were not hardened. Some if your lucky also have the head with actual glow plugs (and if you do and don't want it I'll buy it from you). Most if the other parts are the same as the Marine engines with the exception of the water pump">raw water pump. Because these engines run at lower rpm they generally last longer, but that means you may likely be getting an engine with more hours than you think.

Second, conversation from industrial to marine is relatively easy. Really it's the water pump and injection pump. Industrial engines have the mechanical governor, Marine engines have the hydraulic governor. The westerbeke vs of the 4-108 also has a mechanical injection pump. You can swap over the Marine components from your old engine. The valve springs also have to be swapped to the dual spring.

With that being said... This is an engine that you don't know, and don't know how it was treated over the years. It went through a generator head, and is possible it has a lot of hours on it. Doesn't mean it won't run or won't pass your inspections. You can't nessesarily fully trust an engine like that.

For a new engine your looking at $40,000 +, as of 2019/early 2020. Beta can install engine mounts that match the Perkins for an easier swap. Yanmar will make you swap to a 3" exhaust for the warranty (may be the turbo model). Other engines are available but really mainstream which means it's harder to get assistance and support later.

The way I see it you only have a couple courses of action here.

1.) It is a simple engine and could be swapped over as is if it runs well and inspection checks out. I would at least pull the head and rebuild that, rebuild the injectors, swap in the Marine injection pump and water pump. Replace the seals while it's out. Will have to have someone come out to align the shaft/motor. Run this engine and rebuild the old one.
Pro: cheaper, faster, don't have to change the mounts it transmission. The listed work will extent the life of the engine and should keep it alive for a while in theory. (Industrial engines can do in excess if 10000 hours)
Con: don't know how new engine has been treated, or how much life it actually has left even with work. Rebuilding head can result in increased pressure and wear in older remaining parts. Thats worrisome at best offshore or on longer trips. (Make sure your seatow membership is current and paid).
2. Rebuild the industrial Perkins 4-108 yourself. These engine parts are not extremely expensive especially compared to other engines. Engine rebuilds are more labor costs. The manuals are available. It's not a hard rebuild just go slow and use the manual. Take things like the head and block to the machine shop. Basic rebuild kit is roughly $500-$700 and contains new pistons and sleeves (machine shop should put in your sleeves) I recommend a couple of upgrades at this time. New upgraded seals. A walker airsep intake to pull pressure out of the block and reduce seal leaks(may have to drill and tap block or pan for the airsep oil return hose). Have the block and head cleaned really good. Have the connecting rods rebuild and swap in arp studs/bolt. Have block machined for O-rings and add copper gasket, get arp head studs (almost bullet proof head gasket setup). Have as many of the components coated with applicable engine coatings (piston ceramic top and slick sides, low friction and hard coatings on cam, gears ect, low friction ceramic on bearings ect), these aren't too expensive and will really increase the longevity of the engine. Rebuild your fuel components, swap over your marine components from the old engine. Install pulleys, serpentine kit, high amp alt after engine is in and running (unless no room on boat, than do before).
Pro. Costs less than a new engine swap (new engine is $40k plus another $5k+ for install). Fits old mounts and transmission. Old engine can be rebuilt as spare at your convenience. Will last up to 10000 hours in theory.
Cons. Still old engine design and technology. Can cost around $2-3k with basic rebuild. Extra upgrades can cost $4k+. Rebuild process and waiting for shop work ect tends to be long. Can't really utilize larger alternator without serpentine belt.

3.) Buy new engine. Yanmar or beta realistically. Yanmar uses same 4jh engine block for naturally aspirated 50hp, 70-90hp turbo charged, 110hp turbocharged and intercooled. Beta has 50hp and 60hp naturally aspirated.
Pro. Won't have to worry about your engine. Fuel efficient. More power, lighter weight
Con. Will possibly have to change the engine mounts and rails. May have to change from the 2" or 2.5" Perkins exhaust to 3".

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

Is it a marine generator 4-108? Or a land industrial generator?

I'm in the process of a 4-108 rebuild now., And have been tormenting over the thoughts of swapping in a modern engine. Had the yard in San Diego not been so expensive I would have a different engine. I am a diesel mechanic, primarily cummins.

So first - the generator and other industrial Perkins 4-108 engines have single valve springs. They don't rev as high 2800 or 3000 toms ,but I will have to look that up in my books later. You also have to look at the build sheet as some have hyperuelitic (low expansion) pistons, and crankshafts that were not hardened. Some if your lucky also have the head with actual glow plugs (and if you do and don't want it I'll buy it from you). Most if the other parts are the same as the Marine engines with the exception of the raw water pump. Because these engines run at lower rpm they generally last longer, but that means you may likely be getting an engine with more hours than you think.

Second, conversation from industrial to marine is relatively easy. Really it's the water pump and injection pump. Industrial engines have the mechanical governor, Marine engines have the hydraulic governor. The westerbeke vs of the 4-108 also has a mechanical injection pump. You can swap over the Marine components from your old engine. The valve springs also have to be swapped to the dual spring.

With that being said... This is an engine that you don't know, and don't know how it was treated over the years. It went through a generator head, and is possible it has a lot of hours on it. Doesn't mean it won't run or won't pass your inspections. You can't nessesarily fully trust an engine like that.

For a new engine your looking at $40,000 +, as of 2019/early 2020. Beta can install engine mounts that match the Perkins for an easier swap. Yanmar will make you swap to a 3" exhaust for the warranty (may be the turbo model). Other engines are available but really mainstream which means it's harder to get assistance and support later.

The way I see it you only have a couple courses of action here.

1.) It is a simple engine and could be swapped over as is if it runs well and inspection checks out. I would at least pull the head and rebuild that, rebuild the injectors, swap in the Marine injection pump and water pump. Replace the seals while it's out. Will have to have someone come out to align the shaft/motor. Run this engine and rebuild the old one.
Pro: cheaper, faster, don't have to change the mounts it transmission. The listed work will extent the life of the engine and should keep it alive for a while in theory. (Industrial engines can do in excess if 10000 hours)
Con: don't know how new engine has been treated, or how much life it actually has left even with work. Rebuilding head can result in increased pressure and wear in older remaining parts. Thats worrisome at best offshore or on longer trips. (Make sure your seatow membership is current and paid).
2. Rebuild the industrial Perkins 4-108 yourself. These engine parts are not extremely expensive especially compared to other engines. Engine rebuilds are more labor costs. The manuals are available. It's not a hard rebuild just go slow and use the manual. Take things like the head and block to the machine shop. Basic rebuild kit is roughly $500-$700 and contains new pistons and sleeves (machine shop should put in your sleeves) I recommend a couple of upgrades at this time. New upgraded seals. A walker airsep intake to pull pressure out of the block and reduce seal leaks(may have to drill and tap block or pan for the airsep oil return hose). Have the block and head cleaned really good. Have the connecting rods rebuild and swap in arp studs/bolt. Have block machined for O-rings and add copper gasket, get arp head studs (almost bullet proof head gasket setup). Have as many of the components coated with applicable engine coatings (piston ceramic top and slick sides, low friction and hard coatings on cam, gears ect, low friction ceramic on bearings ect), these aren't too expensive and will really increase the longevity of the engine. Rebuild your fuel components, swap over your marine components from the old engine. Install pulleys, serpentine kit, high amp alt after engine is in and running (unless no room on boat, than do before).
Pro. Costs less than a new engine swap (new engine is $40k plus another $5k+ for install). Fits old mounts and transmission. Old engine can be rebuilt as spare at your convenience. Will last up to 10000 hours in theory.
Cons. Still old engine design and technology. Can cost around $2-3k with basic rebuild. Extra upgrades can cost $4k+. Rebuild process and waiting for shop work ect tends to be long. Can't really utilize larger alternator without serpentine belt.

3.) Buy new engine. Yanmar or beta realistically. Yanmar uses same 4jh engine block for naturally aspirated 50hp, 70-90hp turbo charged, 110hp turbocharged and intercooled. Beta has 50hp and 60hp naturally aspirated.
Pro. Won't have to worry about your engine. Fuel efficient. More power, lighter weight
Con. Will possibly have to change the engine mounts and rails. May have to change from the 2" or 2.5" Perkins exhaust to 3".

All good advice BUT a new Beta 50 is no where near $40,000. More like $12,000. Try for discounts. Seventeen years ago (yes, I know that was a long time ago) my Beta 50 cost me about $6,000 plus a few hundred dollars in yard (crane) fees. I did the work myself and the custom engine mounts saved me a small fortune in time and $'s. Did the engine change in less than a week.

[malbert73]

Yup I repowered with a Beta 50 for 19K including all labor. All I did was clean up bilge and install new soundproofing

[1affiah]

I would look long and hard at all Perkins parts sources before buying anything from Foley. Google them for some interesting reading.

[esarratt]

Originally Posted by Cruiser2B

I'd run a leak down and compression test. If both pass, I'd reseal it, change all coolant hoses.

+1

See if you can borrow or rent the compression tester. Diesel compression testers are expensive. I'd give a shop $250-$500 as a deposit to borrow their tester.

Originally Posted by btompkins

It doesn't look hard, and I agree. Two things concern me, the special tools needed, and cutting the valve seats looks a little intimidating. Is it really that easy?

I would purchase two books:
The service/shop manual for your engine (Ebay or CL)
Nigel Calder's Marine Diesel Engines

Nigel's book tells you how to evaluate internal components for wear (keep or throw them away), how to lap valves, rebuild engines, etc.

I'm using his book currently (plus online forums) to help me rebuild an engine in my Nissan. Invaluable.

I notice you are in Norfolk. That is an excellent area for machine shops and picking the brains of mechanics in person (pictures on a computer and a face mask).

I highly recommend watching Youtube videos on lapping valves, compression tests, etc. All this is covered by automotive gearheads extensively online.

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Yes can see your reasoning but I wouldnt rebuild it if it does not need it. As stated earlier, best to do leakdown & compression tests first.
Not that I know Perkins engines but have heard enough rear seal stories to know they can be a Pita so good idea to do that.
You can always rebuild the takeout one if you need a project.

Important clarification that: don't "rebuild" it unless condition requires it, OR you want to be as certain as you can be that it won't fail unexpectedly in the future. Easy to get carried away with time, tools and a warm shop.

You might want to do the same inspection on your old engine if only for comparison, as it may be in better shape than you think.

Sounds like AlaskanViking can tell you all you need to know and more!

And once done, run it in well and recheck before sailing over the horizon.

[lexowgrant]

For in depth info on Rebuilding a Perkins 4108, see the facebook page for the engine ( there may be two pages).

[gcaws]

I had a diesel mechanic rebuild my 4-108 and it worked for a time. Unfortunately it stated leaking oil and the older unreplaced parts started breaking down. I realise you’re doing the work yourself but it created huge problems in terms of reliability and a huge oil-in-bilge mess that I still deal with today. I then bought a drop in replacement Beta Marine BV2203 (Basically a 50 hp Kubota tractor engine that is marinized in England) and have been thrilled (yes thrilled). After over 10 years it has proven hyper reliable and not fussy. It was not expensive and I should have just purchased it rather than just continue using the 4-108. Please investigate as it may change what you do.