New yacht - Old engine?

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

I would be more inclined towards a Kubota fork lift engine....

A torquey Tier 2, non-common-rail naturally aspirated, mechanically robust, easily owner-serviced diesel with spares common to a large range of small to mid-sized agricultural and construction equipment worldwide that can be run at 75% throttle for weeks at a time (assuming the fuel load to do so)?



Logical enough for ya? Why yes, I love my Beta 60.

[Island Time O25]

I once came across an explanation why pharma mafia comes up year after year with "new and improved" (not) drugs when quite often the old ones work perfectly fine. You guessed it - patent control which leads to higher profits, etc. IMO same logic operates for the most part with the diesel engine manucacturers The supposed fuel efficiency will be more then offset by higher initial cost. And the profits from fancy electronic replacement parts often are greater then the profit on the original motor. Kind of like modern "free printers" with $100 cartridges which last for 1 month vs $1000 printers of old with $25-50 cartridges which lasted for years.

[mikecambrai]

The old 'oil' engine, such as Perkins, Daf, Ford Dorset etc in the marine environment were extremely reliable and still are. I have sat in my engine room looking at the old engines running and thinking what can I do to help this engine apart from keeping the filters clean changing the oil as necessary and watching the cooling water. My old air start Deutz and petrol start Kelvin were a joy to watch and people would come on board just to listen to them.
On the old Perkins they did not even have the dreaded Jabsco, instead they had a pump with 2 fibre gears drawing in the water. These engines were 40 years old and the Kelvin prewar.
Now as soon as you put electronics on an engine they will give you more power for less weight, cleaner exhausts, more economy etc. But at sea, you really do need reliability above all else.
Because of new regulations, new yachts are having to be fitted with eco engines with computers. There is a market opening up for the old engines like John Deere being stripped and reconditioned as new. This gets around the regulations and provides you with an extremely reliable engine which you can work on.
Apart from the diesel pump most of everything else that is likely to go wrong is salvageable at sea. When I worked at CAV/Bosch many years ago making diesel pumps, the pump would either seize up immediately or run forever.
I don't mind the electronic engine in my Citroen because if it does break down I just call in the breakdown wagon. This is just not a possibility at sea and is particularly dangerous in heavy weather near the coast.
So my vote must go to an old engine refurbed professionally.

[TrentePieds]

In general, particularly when you are completing something you are taking over, something that was started by someone else: KISS!

You are not being advised to install an old engine, obviously, but rather an OLD-FASHIONED. The Kubotas, mentioned above, ARE old-fashioned and simple. They have the advantage, compared with many other small industrial diesels, that all the bits you need to get at from time to time are reachable from the FRONT of the engine, so that in small boats, where the typical position for the engine is under the bridge deck/companionway, the standard periodic maintenance requirements are easily dealt with.

MySaintedMother used to tell me: "If you can't mend it with a shiv and a bit of cod line, don't go to sea in it!" I've no idea where she picked up such aphorisms. She didn't even speak English :-)! Nevertheless there is truth in what she said, and it applies to engines as well as to the rigging.

IMO you could hardly do better than the ubiquitous little Kubota. Marinized they sell under the name "Beta"

TrentePieds.

[roland stockham]

Yes traditional engines have a lot of plussed. Modern lightweights use lots of mixed metals, particularly turbos. Cruising in remote places a tractor engine that has parts available from a non-marine supplier and preferably a steel gearbox case has a lot going for it. Allow corrodes in warm damp salty environment like the tropics.

[KadeyKrogen38]

That old fork lift motor referred to in first post is most likely the Perkins 4-108 as this was a major use for this motor.

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by KadeyKrogen38

That old fork lift motor referred to in first post is most likely the Perkins 4-108 as this was a major use for this motor.

And it was. It seems that particular engine exists in the "tens of millions" - an ideal candidate for parts to available absolutely for ever. There are a few mods to do as well - the spin-on fuel filter mod looks like a good idea.

Having said all this, I would never plan an extended outing without ALL the spares. At least a spare starter motor, plus a rebuild kit for the trans.

Thanks everyone for your input.

[ferrailleur]

everyone say keep it simple.....
So true: diesel engine a good starting battery, clean air, good compression and clean fuel....
That's simple.
I have a 82 Ford truck with a Caterpillar 3208.... which have been running on that simple principle for 46 years with no problem.

[coastalexplorer]

for what it is worth, I write to comment on the foundry and machining procedures that Bruce Beard was mentioning at the end of page one. over half a century ago an iron foundry would leave a casting in its sand mold to cool slowly until cold.



High production, just-in-time inventory, modern foundry practice is to send molds to the 'shaker' as soon as they have solidified. I have seen them coming out of the process with dull red heat in them.


During the very early 1960's the firm in England where I served my apprenticeship. received an order from a division of Rolls Royce. The specification called for a double machining allowance plus a corrosion allowance. plus a seasoning period.



The castings were cooled naturally.
A primary machining operation was done to remove the surface skin.
They were then lined up on the walkway against the water turbine wall, where spray from the mill race would occasionally spray them. The summer sun would beat down and heat them, and in the winters the frost would freeze them.

After they had been there two years I left So I did not see the final machining and delivery.



So think the Gardner diesels are highly desirable. certainly the company has an interesting history. quite likely that in the early days of is conception similar attention to detail processes could have been used?

[charliehows]

given the luxury of choice, I'd sniff out an old Lister - damn fine engines.

[charliehows]

MySaintedMother used to tell me: "If you can't mend it with a shiv and a bit of cod line, don't go to sea in it!" I've no idea where she picked up such aphorisms. She didn't even speak English :-)! Nevertheless there is truth in what she said, and it applies to engines as well as to the rigging.


Fabulous - that little aphorism is like a window onto the past - I was reading a book published in the 1930's recently which had a fantastic description of a pearling lugger somewhere up around New Guinea (now Papua New Guinea) on which most of the rusty rigging was held together with fishing line and old netting rope

[elandra65]

Why would you want an engine that relies on a whole bunch of sensors and electrical connections all begging to stop conducting properly due to the Normal corrosive salt water environment boats live in. Wouldn't touch one with a barge pole on a cruising yacht. The main reason for electronic controlled engines is pollution and a slight improvement in fuel consumption. It is a sailboat first. Try to pick one that is commonly used in other common applications even though the bolt on marine bits are unique. It will make a rebuild much cheaper.

[Bruce Beard]

Some of these replies are entertaining!
Well, if you want an old tech engine, you can have one...as long as you are not trying to install it in a new boat.
I love modern technology and I am not frightened of it, but whatever.
There are certainly some great vintage diesels out waiting to be rebuilt.
We’ve gone to the dark side anyway, what can I say?
Bruce

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by elandra65

Why would you want an engine that relies on a whole bunch of sensors and electrical connections all begging to stop conducting properly due to the Normal corrosive salt water environment boats live in.

The reasons were stated in the first post, cleanliness, quietness, better range, and just to have a nice quiet and smooth modern engine.

Your suggestion that these engines are assembled from all sorts of piecemeal electronics with exposed connections isn't a valid criticism. They are made from quality electronics with sealed connectors, and in automotive use the large majority of them run their entire lives with nary a spanner put near them - a record that many marine engines could take a lesson from.

With plenty of inexpensive spares there is no reason why a complicated electronic automotive conversion couldn't be used. The problem mainly, is whether the skipper is happy with that.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ

The reasons were stated in the first post, cleanliness, quietness, better range, and just to have a nice quiet and smooth modern engine.

Your suggestion that these engines are assembled from all sorts of piecemeal electronics with exposed connections isn't a valid criticism. They are made from quality electronics with sealed connectors, and in automotive use the large majority of them run their entire lives with nary a spanner put near them - a record that many marine engines could take a lesson from.

With plenty of inexpensive spares there is no reason why a complicated electronic automotive conversion couldn't be used. The problem mainly, is whether the skipper is happy with that.

I'm assuming by a modern engine you are referring to a common rail diesel as opposed to traditional mechanical injection. If so, then I challenge some of your assertions.

Cleanliness - not relevant, totally dependant on the owner. I've seen plenty of 20+ years old engines that you can eat your breakfast off. Of course, there are plenty you can't but it is not a function of new/modern.

Quietness - perhaps better but again somewhat dependant on installation.

Better Range - I doubt it, the efficiency of a diesel engine hasn't really increased very much regarding kW per litre when run at steady loaded RPM (cruising boat style). This is more applicable to car use, especially town driving.

Emissions - modern engines are certainly way better but in the scheme of things, the emissions of all the cruising boats around the world put together would be (IMO) a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the land based engines

Smoothness - more a function of number of cylinders and engine mounts but comparing apples with apples, still not a real issue when operating at a steady RPM (again cruising style). Certainly relevant in automotive engines where the RPM is never constant.

WRT the electronics, how well are they hardened against EMI from nearby lightning strikes. Until I knew that for sure, I would not cruise off-shore with them. Note, the spares also need protection.

YMMV.