Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

[Michael Cobbe]

I have said this before, I asked a number of marine engine repairers in the Caribbean which engine they had to repair the leaast and the concenus was Yanmar.

[GoneDiving]

Originally Posted by Michael Cobbe

I have said this before, I asked a number of marine engine repairers in the Caribbean which engine they had to repair the leaast and the concenus was Yanmar.

There's a joke in there somewhere about the old bangers being reliable enough to not need to stop at the mechanics and they sailed right on by. 😁

Cheers

[Iains boatyard]

Couple of other thoughts with you thinking keep it simple for me and the Gardner were the dry stack exhaust so no heat exchangers and there dramas, i have a separate oil transmission cooling circuit and a separate engine cooling circuit fresh water not pressurised.
My day tank will gravity feed the engine if necessary.
I have a solid shaft driving a 38 inch 4 blade prop average under 1 litre per nautical mile subject to the usual wind currents etc. The 6lxb just keep ticking over even in some seriously horrible conditions.
I have an inventory spare of parts for quick replacement if necessary.
Kevin and Yvonne at Mainline Engineering in QLD are very helpful and can ship any where there is express freight.
I am the current owner not the builder but have improved a little on their original concept. A good Aussie built fishing boat is the way to go. I am no fan of plastic fantastic.

[GoneDiving]

Can a Yanmar do this? 😁

https://youtu.be/TOe9veJAM2M

[moseriw]

UJhh 20 year old diesel - what a good stuff. No bloody bio in it at all - no dieselpest.
Good old diesel can be 100 years old and will be better stuff than the new scrap.

[Iains boatyard]

I reckon you can do that with a Gardner

[Pizzazz]

This is a never ending discussion, old vs. new because people are nostalgic. New is always better unless you enjoy working on engines and many of us do. The key problems with old:

1. Parts availability becomes uneconomical after 20-30 years.

2. New engines have features that are desirable, fuel efficiency for example.

3. Depreciation cost becomes too small to matter. Say, you start with a new boat that has a new diesel in it for $20K. After 20 years, the annual depreciation cost is $1,000 which is comparable to fuel, oil changes, etc. At this point you should be ready to replace the diesel, either planned or when it breaks down. If you wait another 10 years, you will actually be worse off. Parts will not be available. The resell value of the engine will be zero. You will be forced to buy and install a new engine in a 30 year old boat that would need to be used for another 20 years to get to the same low cost (or you take your luck on used engines). It becomes a real mess and it usually is more costly in terms of time, money and lost enjoyment than buying new.

So just get a new Yanmar and be happy.

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

This is a never ending discussion, old vs. new because people are nostalgic. New is always better unless you enjoy working on engines and many of us do. The key problems with old:

1. Parts availability becomes uneconomical after 20-30 years.

2. New engines have features that are desirable, fuel efficiency for example.

3. Depreciation cost becomes too small to matter. Say, you start with a new boat that has a new diesel in it for $20K. After 20 years, the annual depreciation cost is $1,000 which is comparable to fuel, oil changes, etc. At this point you should be ready to replace the diesel, either planned or when it breaks down. If you wait another 10 years, you will actually be worse off. Parts will not be available. The resell value of the engine will be zero. You will be forced to buy and install a new engine in a 30 year old boat that would need to be used for another 20 years to get to the same low cost (or you take your luck on used engines). It becomes a real mess and it usually is more costly in terms of time, money and lost enjoyment than buying new.

So just get a new Yanmar and be happy.

AND this is absolutely NOT true. One will get engine parts (All inside an engine) even for engines built 1920! Yes I said nineteenhundredtwenty!!

And even the manufacturing of bearings is not the slightest problem for a good workshop. Gaskets? One can cut them out of a sheet..

So please do not argue without any proof of facts.

Everything else that is attached to the engine can be replaced by other parts.

The one and only a bit complicated part is the diesel injection pump but with a good professional worker all parts can be remanufactured too.

And a rebuilt FORD Dorset is around USD 5000,-- a injector pump < 800 USD.


And if you followed the thread there are engines out that work since 1972 without any major issues.

I bet you will not even reach 25% (15years) of it with a new Yanmar, Volvo or whatever..

[thataway41]

There are a couple of short haul ferry boats in the Sacramento Delta which run 671's 24/7 @ 1200 RPM for 2 years non stop.( about 17500 hours) The oil is "purified" and added when necessary. Then they are torn down and majored- to go another 2 years of service. II was told they never had a failure during the 2 year run time. The boats use a rotating center drive. This is in brackish/to fresh water.

Friend just acquired a 55 year old 6 71, used in a shrimper, and never majored. Still runs well, no smoke.

I would go with the old technology. I hear of the Yanmars being replaced in 5 years or so...

[GoneDiving]

Guys, my post about the old rope shovel coming to life was very tongue in cheek. I just found it a very funny video.

In all seriousness, I can see benefits to both models:

Newer high speed diesels are often more efficient per liter, tonne or engine bay size. Their higher servicing costs can be amortized against these. As others have pointed out, tankage or space constraints may make them the only practical consideration if to you actually want to get 'there'.

Older units can offer bullet proof reliability, longevity and easy user maintenance.

Of course there is a huge grey area between these two options as well and it's up to the individual to select which one best suits them.

Cheers

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by moseriw

AND this is absolutely NOT true. One will get engine parts (All inside an engine) even for engines built 1920! Yes I said nineteenhundredtwenty!!

And even the manufacturing of bearings is not the slightest problem for a good workshop. Gaskets? One can cut them out of a sheet..

So please do not argue without any proof of facts.

Everything else that is attached to the engine can be replaced by other parts.

The one and only a bit complicated part is the diesel injection pump but with a good professional worker all parts can be remanufactured too.

And a rebuilt FORD Dorset is around USD 5000,-- a injector pump < 800 USD.


And if you followed the thread there are engines out that work since 1972 without any major issues.

I bet you will not even reach 25% (15years) of it with a new Yanmar, Volvo or whatever..

I am not saying it cannot be done. It just becomes uneconomical and marginal. There are outliers in every activity but most people agree that there is a lifecycle to every product and once you get outside of the normal repair period, it becomes uneconomical for the manufacturers, for the distributors and for the customers. This is the reality accepted by 95% of the population. There are always outliers.

Let me give you an example. My 1983 2GMF engine slipped a bearing. I tried to find that non-existent crank shaft from Japan, it was going to be $1,600+shipping, not economical. I did repair the shaft in a machine shop for $75 but it cost me two days of travel. Then I started putting together the engine and realized it would be $1,000 in parts and a few days of labor. Then you have the alignment, etc. A new, modern Yanmar was $5,500 that if installed was going to outlive the boat (day another 30 years to the current 35 years). It is unlikely that my current H31 will be viable for that long. I rolled the dice and purchased a second hand 2GM20F for half the price of new but mostly because spare parts for that are easier and faster to find. I have been through the dilemma of the OP and I believe it is a fair advice. The idea of this forum is to highlight the different options and we can always make our own decisions. Just do not underestimate the cost in searching for parts, going to different machine shops and downtime in maintaining an d engine.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Iains boatyard

.
I am the current owner not the builder but have improved a little on their original concept. A good Aussie built fishing boat is the way to go. I am no fan of plastic fantastic.

Still up in KK?

[Old fella]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I am not saying it cannot be done. It just becomes uneconomical and marginal. There are outliers in every activity but most people agree that there is a lifecycle to every product and once you get outside of the normal repair period, it becomes uneconomical for the manufacturers, for the distributors and for the customers. This is the reality accepted by 95% of the population. There are always outliers.

Let me give you an example. My 1983 2GMF engine slipped a bearing. I tried to find that non-existent crank shaft from Japan, it was going to be $1,600+shipping, not economical. I did repair the shaft in a machine shop for $75 but it cost me two days of travel. Then I started putting together the engine and realized it would be $1,000 in parts and a few days of labor. Then you have the alignment, etc. A new, modern Yanmar was $5,500 that if installed was going to outlive the boat (day another 30 years to the current 35 years). It is unlikely that my current H31 will be viable for that long. I rolled the dice and purchased a second hand 2GM20F for half the price of new but mostly because spare parts for that are easier and faster to find. I have been through the dilemma of the OP and I believe it is a fair advice. The idea of this forum is to highlight the different options and we can always make our own decisions. Just do not underestimate the cost in searching for parts, going to different machine shops and downtime in maintaining an d engine.

WRONG, there were so many fords and jimmies and others built, they are lying around in sheds all over the show. Now what makes you think because you get 30yrs out of an old 2gm you will get 30yrs out of the new equivalent, I bet you won't , why, because they have been building engines smaller, lighter and more hp as times gone by, something's got to give, in this case it's quality and longevity

[Pizzazz]

You have your opinion (“I bet”) and I don’t expect us to be on this forum 30 years from now to see who is right or wrong. All I am saying is that most people believe in a product lifecycle and that is what moves the economy and the world forward. The reason why these old engines (or planes, etc.) are lying around is that they are uneconomical to put back in service. Again, this is the reality, the rest is opinions, nostalgia, I bet, you bet, bar and forum talk. If you think I am wrong, let it be so.

[moseriw]

OK here are my primaries:

1.) what I do not have can not break. (I. e. common rail, turbocharger, engine electronics.)


2.) Nothing will be on my boat that I am not able to repair or things I can live without. (Electronic navigation)

In fact I am able to sail without any electronics and even without any electric support.

And I think this is how it should be. If every technics brake down I will survive.

In spite of this it is obvious that my engine shall be bullet proof and I want to be able to get it running under almost all circumstances.

And this is not what the manufacturers want. I'd say they are risiking our lifes for their revenues and they have our stupidness in their calculations.

Why do I want an engine that runs silet at 3200 rpm just to wreck the engine in more than half the time than running it with 1600 rpm.