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Old 21-07-2021, 12:12   #31
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

LIghtning is an E field. That is it sets up a voltage field.

So a strike anywhere near the boat will create a large voltage difference across even small places. So imagine 100 volts across a computer chip only rated for 3.3 volts.

You can also get erosion failures. Where the tiny wires in the chips get a part of the wire connects the solder lead to the silicon can loose some metal. After a few power cycles it finally burns out. A device with a near strike may not fail for a few weeks.

I had a strike about 100m from a TV and several days later the TV died.

The E field (voltage field) is also why you are told to squat down with ankles touching if caught out in a storm. The lightning can hit nearby. If you are laying down there could be thousands of volts difference between your head and feet.

The advice about keeping devices in metal boxes of some sort is correct. That will flow the field around (current) the devices. Obviously you might have a hard time putting the motor controller or the electronics in the lithium batteries in a case. On the bright side these computer controlled diesel engines will have the same problems. There is something to be said about good old stuff that does not need much electronics to work. All the rest it might be wise to have a spare in a metal box.

As for advice as to what you must do for your boat. I would only listen to someone who writes standards or is involved in lightning research. I have read a few posters who believe various items prevent problems. Yet the research is clear they do not work.

I make my comments based in articles written by researchers. I am an electronics engineer.
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Old 21-07-2021, 12:55   #32
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkeithlu View Post
QUOTE: "I'm considering changing all shrouds and stays to Dyneema, after watching this. Then all troubles of making groundings to the water will be unnecessary."

Changing to Dyneema will have little effect on what happens when lightning strikes. Given the damp and the salt in any rope, it is likely to take at least some of the current.

We think of wood as being a good insulator, but have you seen what happens to a tree when hit? The moisture in the wood makes it a conductor, the sap turns to steam, the bark and a strip of wood goes flying...
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Old 21-07-2021, 14:05   #33
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
I wonder about the "microwave"-protection: phone receives call when in the mw, just tried it the other day...
Interesting, is your phone using 5G?

A Faraday cage has mesh openings that correspond to the wavelength of electromagnetic energy they are trying to block. Microwave ovens use a frequency of 2.45GHz. The microwave oven should be effective at blocking all frequencies of 2.45GHz and lower. Higher frequencies should pass through the mesh, i.e. visible light.

The only cellular technology with frequencies higher than 2.45GHz is 5G.


Inductive spikes
Lightning puts out electromagnetic energy in a wide range of frequencies. However, most of that energy is in the KHz range. Therefore, a microwave should work effectively against items that are unplugged within it.

Faraday cages work against inductive spikes, however, an item that is plugged in may receive a conductive spike. So placing foil around a plugged in item won't prevent it from a surge that occurs on the power or ground lines.

Conductive spikes
Small conductive spikes can be eliminated with surge protectors and within electronic equipment by using clamping circuits (like TVS diodes, etc).

Large conductive spikes will blow past surge protectors and will require a significant air gap on all external lines, including data lines and the grounds.
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Old 21-07-2021, 14:58   #34
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoreFun View Post
LIghtning is an E field. That is it sets up a voltage field.

So a strike anywhere near the boat will create a large voltage difference across even small places. So imagine 100 volts across a computer chip only rated for 3.3 volts.

You can also get erosion failures. Where the tiny wires in the chips get a part of the wire connects the solder lead to the silicon can loose some metal. After a few power cycles it finally burns out. A device with a near strike may not fail for a few weeks.

I had a strike about 100m from a TV and several days later the TV died.

The E field (voltage field) is also why you are told to squat down with ankles touching if caught out in a storm. The lightning can hit nearby. If you are laying down there could be thousands of volts difference between your head and feet.

The advice about keeping devices in metal boxes of some sort is correct. That will flow the field around (current) the devices. Obviously you might have a hard time putting the motor controller or the electronics in the lithium batteries in a case. On the bright side these computer controlled diesel engines will have the same problems. There is something to be said about good old stuff that does not need much electronics to work. All the rest it might be wise to have a spare in a metal box.

As for advice as to what you must do for your boat. I would only listen to someone who writes standards or is involved in lightning research. I have read a few posters who believe various items prevent problems. Yet the research is clear they do not work.

I make my comments based in articles written by researchers. I am an electronics engineer.



Exactly the same spirit as my post. Iím a recovering physicist. Lol

There is literally nothing you can do to protect the boatís wiring. You might as well just forget about it and move on to safety gear like I said in my post.

Itís the currents created by the induction that are going to destroy everything. Even if the lightning doesnít touch your boat. Just has to be close enough. And if it did touch your boat, itís definitely close enough to fry everything.

This entire thread is an exercise in futility. Excepting the safety items.
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Old 23-07-2021, 10:08   #35
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Hi Carstendenmark,
Sorry for not responding sooner but I finally went sailing for a few days.

The prop I believe is the original 13RH11 that came with the boat which weighs 4900lbs. The complete E-package with G31 Firefly batts works out to be within 60 lbs of the little Yanmar and gearbox. She sat her line perfectly when launched. I was able to create a box for the batts between the beds and that helped keep the hull trimmed. The small green box you see in the pix is a Bluetooth to Samsung tab thingy for sending data to my tablet. I just uploaded the instruments I wanted.
I installed a new AC/DC panel to connect the 2X Sterling 15 amp X 48 V chargers to as well so when on Shore power I can charge them or when not I can connect my 2000 watt Inverter Genny to my S/P cable.
Its Alive and working great!
I'm not really a data guy but will record some this weekend. Let me know if you have other questions. I put the boat on a local lake for trials for the summer prior to the 1000 KM trip to the sea next year so wont really need to push the drive system to the limits this season.
I did however use 1.1 volt for the 12 Km trip to the marina from the launch pad, It was at 11 kph (haven't found a Knots instrument to upload yet) so about 5-6 kts speed at 750 rpm which was 1/2 of the rpm available. It pulled out power at 10 amps from the batts. Just a guess is about 50-55 mile range?? Ill see one day for sure then ill start the genny and ishould be able to at least keep moving forward.
Seems its (electric boat) the talk of the Y.C. and have been giving tours for the last couple days.
It quiet and very torquey!
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Old 23-07-2021, 19:45   #36
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Nice job, Skipper Lee !

Looking at the photos makes me ask some questions :
Any name of that green box ? I am "running" my nav chart on two Samsung's, A5 and S9, so it would be really nice with that.
What is your solution for thrust bearing and coupling ?

Is you hull clean, when measuring speeds ? The drag of even just a little weed can be considerable.

Maybe consider to either shorten or straighten out your cables, so you don't coil them up. (Coiling could create unnecessary waste heat.)

I'm so exited when I see your setup !
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Old 26-07-2021, 08:29   #37
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Hi Carstendenmark,
Yes it's my bad for coiling that wire. I didn't want to start cutting up the wires until I proved it all worked in case something had to go back to the manufacturer.
l will get that fixed asap.
The green device is a OBD2 Bluetooth reader, like what the mechanic plugs in under your dash at the auto shop. The Thunderstruck Motors kit has the ability to use it if you buy what's called the CAN Translator from them with your kit. Then you go online and order from a variety of Bluetooth adaptors but they recommend the green Lynx LS I purchased from Amazon.ca.
I was quite nervous to turn the key but I followed the manual and it worked perfectly the first time.
The thrust is managed by a groove in the stub shaft they provide with a locking collar against one of the flange bearings on the 2-1 reduction plate. It has hubs for a cogged rubber drive belt from T-Struck.
I removed their shaft and chain coupler and had a machine shop redo my shaft to fit the flange bearings (2) on the reduction plate and cut in the groove for the locking collar which stops the shaft thrust. I did this because I wanted to get rid of the chain coupler which are inherently noisy as well as I needed to shorten the package so I could fit the 4 batts forward of the system where the diesel was. I believe that removing the extra shaft and chain coupler removed some friction and drag in the drive.
I built a new wall under the companionway stairs with a door to allow for removing the batts forward into the cabin as opposed to hauling them up out through the lazarette.
I am a happy owner of the 5Kw Thunderstruck kit and know two other friends that also installed the same kit without issue, although they just used it as it came without the mods and put the batts behind where the diesel tank was. I believe it's best to not hang additional weight at the stern. She sat her lines perfectly.
Just had another 2 days sailing (4 sails so far) and have used it for another hour or two and have lots of volts left. I will charge the batts anyway with my Inverter Generator on Wednesday when it's less crowded at the YC.
If you want to just go to Thunderstruck Motors online and click on the 5KW kit or possibly 10Kw for your bigger heavier boat. From there you can find the Bluetooth info under the Instrumentation tab and the Reduction plate has another tab to check out.
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Old 26-07-2021, 18:12   #38
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Thanks Skipper Lee, for all the information !

So, as I read your changes (maybe I'm wrong), you do not have a thrust bearing in the setup ?
Just a collar and a groove ? How to lubricate ?
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Old 26-07-2021, 18:54   #39
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Hi Carstendenmark,
The motor is connected/bolted to the reduction plate on a up/down slide for adjustment. It's isolated from the shaft by the cogged belt drive.
There are two flange bearings one on each side of the reduction plate with a hollow tube between them. That's where it gets greased. The hefty flange bearings are locked to the Prop shaft as well as an additional groove and collar against the aft bearing to stop the prop shaft moving forward. It is not be able to move further forward. The belt drive keeps any thrust from affecting the actual e-motor. If it all came apart I put a shaft zinc close enough to the cutless bearing to prevent the shaft coming out the stern end. The grooved collar spins with the shaft which is against the center part of the bearing that spins as its also locked to the shaft.
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Old 26-07-2021, 19:23   #40
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

So lub is ok :-)
What makes up the flexibility of the prop shaft connection to the reduction gear shaft ?
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Old 27-07-2021, 07:51   #41
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Thumbs up Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

I am not sure of your question?
Perhaps these photos will help.
I put some faith in the manufacturer and all is well with my conversion.
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Old 27-07-2021, 08:40   #42
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Exactly the same spirit as my post. Iím a recovering physicist. Lol

There is literally nothing you can do to protect the boatís wiring. You might as well just forget about it and move on to safety gear like I said in my post.

Itís the currents created by the induction that are going to destroy everything. Even if the lightning doesnít touch your boat. Just has to be close enough. And if it did touch your boat, itís definitely close enough to fry everything.

This entire thread is an exercise in futility. Excepting the safety items.
Do you think cellular infrastructure has this attitude? Or, is the physics somehow limited to things that float, or??
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Old 27-07-2021, 11:56   #43
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper Lee View Post
I am not sure of your question?
Perhaps these photos will help.
I put some faith in the manufacturer and all is well with my conversion.
It appears to be two Gilmore pulleys and a belt. Makes sense with a DC motor.
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Old 27-07-2021, 20:14   #44
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

Skipper Lee, I fully understand the design of the Thunderstruck reduction plate and system.

You have removed the chain coupler, which is there to provide the flexibility.
So I'm just asking you what the replacement of the chain coupling is, as you will need flexibility in order not to wear out the cutless bearing.
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Old 28-07-2021, 09:48   #45
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Re: Electric propulsion - lightning protection ?

The chain coupler is there to allow for an uncomplicated DIY installation and for those that do not achieve 100% excellent alignment when coupling the 2 shafts together! If I had to include a shaft coupling I would certainly choose a well aligned solid coupler or rubber disc type when the time cant be afforded to get them aligned or a shaft is not true. It is also there so folks can just install it as a simple kit and not disassemble it or dream up ways to make it a better installation. In my opinion based on 40 plus years of building equipment as long as the motor is isolated, as it certainly is with the final drive belt there is nothing better than a straight shaft and a direct drive. Thus: I'll do me.

That said: My setup does depend on the shaft remaining true! I will carefully monitor the shaft and Cutless bearing regardless and will rather maintain it than listen to a very noisy chain coupler! I've installed hundreds of them and they are loud.

I love that humans have independent thought and are willing to choose their own path and live with the results as well as share their experiences so as to help others avoid the ill conceived ones when they happen.

I do appreciate your thoughts and advice and learn something everyday here, like don't coil extra wires, Thanks for that. Further I am not to proud to post here re: The complete failure of my installation should that happen. I am excited to hear you are going e-drive and hope to hear about your installation here on CF.

Best regards,
Skipperlee.
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