Why. Used Seawind is so much Higher Price than Lagoon

[dirkdig]

Originally Posted by smj

Sounds like your upset because you can't afford a Seawind and have to settle for the Lagoon?:-)

Settle for a Lagoon?

Now that is funny

[Le Doume]

Originally Posted by Factor

They are worth exactly what the market pays - no more no less. Yes. Indeed support is exactly the same as it was before the move
It didnt - one part of the group went into administration for a few weeks. No owner with a boat in build lost any money at all and all boats were delivered. The Head company was the one that ones Seawind and Corsair and the vietnam production facility was unaffected

I am not sure what you mean by that, the MD is still the same guy who started the company, the production manager and key production staff are the same, with many of them moving to Vietnam, the Corsair production and esign team are the same. The only subtle difference is that Multihull Central is a seperate company as the Australian distributor and world marketing office, but its still all the same people.
I have no idea what you mean. None at all.

If anyone is genuinely interested in purchasing a boat all the owners who were involved during the time of administration are only too happy to discuss their satisfaction with how it was handled. If anyone is interested in visiting the factory just ask.

I understand that as part of the distribution set up you will stand up and try to defend your product , however , the fact remains that this WAS an Australian company who got into financial difficulties and took the easy way out by moving offshore , it is all very well for the owner and the management team who were all offered their " old" job in Vietnam , but what about the rest of the employees back in Wollongong who ended up losing their jobs.
This is another Australian ICON who sadly went offshore , Seawind were great boats , and the new one built in Vietnam will probably still be , but the sad saga has been another knock on the head to LET'S BUY AUSTRALIAN , and by t he way , do try to explain to a Vietnam Vet that this was the right thing to do .
Cheers for now

[Strikhedonia]

That was fun to read, thanks for spicing it up everyone! No doubt the owners of Seawinds are close to cult status which does does breed owners who take excellent care of their boats. Not too many sell (in North America), but as mentioned by others, maybe the owners don't really want to give up their boats and set the prices at levels to ensure they don't have to.

As Factor stated, Seawind did struggle with the high cost of doing business in Australia but stood behind the folks who put money down on new boats and didn't screw them like many other boat builders have in the past. I give them high marks for finding a solution to continuing the production of a great design and treating their customers right. Bankruptcy/Voluntary administration it doesn't affect the value one bit because they stood behind their product. I have not heard any complaints about the boats coming out of Vietnam and until I do, I'm trusting that the build quality is unchanged.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Le Doume

I understand that as part of the distribution set up you will stand up and try to defend your product , however , the fact remains that this WAS an Australian company who got into financial difficulties and took the easy way out by moving offshore , it is all very well for the owner and the management team who were all offered their " old" job in Vietnam , but what about the rest of the employees back in Wollongong who ended up losing their jobs.
This is another Australian ICON who sadly went offshore , Seawind were great boats , and the new one built in Vietnam will probably still be , but the sad saga has been another knock on the head to LET'S BUY AUSTRALIAN , and by t he way , do try to explain to a Vietnam Vet that this was the right thing to do .
Cheers for now

Seawind purchased Corsair and the Vietnam production facility and commenced the relocation PRIOR to the administration period, fundamentally it meant the company survived, had it not all staff would have been unemployed,(including all staff at the Corsair factory in HCMC). Its complex but simply put - the high dollar and the cost of doing business in Australia has seen many many business leave, eg Ford in Geelong.

On the viet vet issue, what can I say, my father fought in WW2 and was bombed by the Japanese but still managed to find it in himself to buy a Mazda. I served in the RAAF (and later the Reserve) and whilst I didnt serve in Vietnam I certainly did my bit in other places, but its a little like football, when its over its over move on. In any event if the Vietnamese people don't mind why should we, its not like they invaded us.

As an aside I spent time at the Long Tan memorial recently near Vung Tau, most moving thing I have done.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Le Doume

I understand that as part of the distribution set up you will stand up and try to defend your product , however , the fact remains that this WAS an Australian company who got into financial difficulties and took the easy way out by moving offshore , it is all very well for the owner and the management team who were all offered their " old" job in Vietnam , but what about the rest of the employees back in Wollongong who ended up losing their jobs.
This is another Australian ICON who sadly went offshore , Seawind were great boats , and the new one built in Vietnam will probably still be , but the sad saga has been another knock on the head to LET'S BUY AUSTRALIAN , and by t he way , do try to explain to a Vietnam Vet that this was the right thing to do .
Cheers for now

If you would do some research you would realize that Corsair had been building trimarans in Vietnam for quite a few years before Seawind acquired Corsair. Maybe Richard Ward could see some benefits to building the Seawinds in Vietnam along with the Corsairs. Or maybe you just don't like Seawinds? Any reason for that?

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

I really dont think there is any mystery here.

If you look at new prices in Australia the equivalent new production boats supplied in Australia are more expensive than the new Seawinds. However, many, probably the majority of the production boats are bought in Europe and sailed over and then on sold by owners. Allowing for the fact that no freight and extra brokerage on cost has been paid they will let their second hand boats go for less.

Therefore, I do not think it is any surprise that there is a difference in price although I do not believe it is as large as some think because I do not believe they are comparing like for like.

I agree that it is difficult to compare "like for like", but Chris, on another thread you equated a FP Helia with a Seawind 1250. I had an opportunity to step from one to the other at Sanctuary Cove last weekend and can easily say that the size difference is huge! No comparison. I don't care about LOA. The volume of the Helia would eat a SW1250 and probably fit in a SW1000 for dessert. So, even new prices for Seawind boats in Australia are premium when compared like for like.

As well, most imported production cats for sale on the second hand market in Australia have come through local importers. Yes, there are more "owner imports" now than a few years ago, but they are still in the minority. I agree that these are lowering the Ossie second hand price of ALL cats.

As far as quality goes; yes, Seawind are of good quality. The 6 year old SW1160 on display at SCIBS was testament to that quality. I have seen many other 6 year old production boats in just as good condition, even the much rubbished Lagoon and FP boats. Le Doume, your Lavezzi at Runaway Bay comes to mind! It's immaculate, Mon Ami! I do apologise for contributing to the thread that you think is pointless. C'est la vie.

[ausaviator]

If the Aussie dollar keeps dropping the way it has been lately it will make second-hand SW's look mighty cheap compared to any import!

[cwjohm]

On the metrics of length, beam and weight the 1250 sits midway between the Lipari and Helia.

On the prices I have been given at the SCBS. The Lipari, 1250 and Helia, similarly equipped, come in at around $80K per metric ton.

A 1250 and a 1000 at a sum total of 14 ton is unlikely to fit into a Helia at 10.5 ton. This would require the repealing of the laws of physics. However, if someone wants to try this as an experiment please let me know where and when.

[tuskie]

Yes, using any measure of size the SW1250 would fit between the Lipari and the Helia, but price wise it is much closer to the Helia, hence my assertion of the premium price.

Price per metric ton. Now that's a novel statistic. Not sure if it is terribly applicable to cruising catamarans where the ones with high tech lightweight contruction techniques and materials cost the most. It's common knowledge that you pay more for less weight.
That aside, with a Seawind I don't think you are paying for high tech lightweight construction. No carbon fibre or epoxy here. So your price per ton is probable OK for cats of similiar construction. I'd prefer if you calculated "price per useable volume" in $/M2. As I said, the Helia has huge volume, most of it usable.

I'm keen to try the experiment you suggest, but as it would involve cutting up two Seawinds and stuffing the bits into a Helia, I don't think either company would approve. Pure speculation, I know.

[cwjohm]

No wrong again.

Price wise it is pretty much exactly midway between the Lipari and Helia. I have the prices in front of me but for obvious reasons I wont publish them. You have to be careful to compare like with like in terms of options.

I suspect the Seawind guys see you coming and up the price by 10% just so we can have these thrilling conversations about how expensive SW boats are.

[downunder]

Although not using carbon fibre (who does other than top end) I believe Seawind is today using resin infusion these days set up by NZ's world leading composites firm. Does the Helia construction use epoxy???

It really all comes back to whats suits the individual and what you want in a vessel. I strongly suspect the engineering installation and serviseability of machinery of the Seawind is hard to beat and one of their pluses.

There a lot of design elements of the Helia are good including the space.
The davits need fixing and seems they are. Was looking at how addittional solar panels could be added and noticed the aft section of cockpit roof (quite flimsy) would have to be reinforced to mount adittional solar panels out there. Again not many design for mounting of 750/1kw solar which many are doing these days. A much simpler and possibly cheaper solution than a hydrogenerator.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by downunder

Does the Helia construction use epoxy???

As I said: similiar costruction. Both are resin infused glass, foam cored.

That's my point, we're not comparing a Mercedes with a Lada. Looked after, both Seawind and FP will be in a similiar GOOD condition for the second hand buyer.

Yes, the "eco pack" or whatever they call the hydrogenerator pushed up the price of the SCIBS Helia. I agree, solar panels would be cheaper and more reliable.

[downunder]

Won't see too many Helia's for sale for a while.

Imagine they will be a a higher price secondhand for the next few years, also. What will help is that they are building a few.

Bummer.

[tuskie]

[QUOTE=downunder;1247626] I strongly suspect the engineering installation and serviseability of machinery of the Seawind is hard to beat and one of their pluses.
QUOTE]

The SW1160 has engine access via the hulls. On the port side, through a hatch in the shower recess and on the starboard from under a bunk. Neither side has a watertight bulkhead separating engine, sail drive and rudder gear from the living areas. Many people concur with you that this is the ideal design.

I prefer to brave the constantly breaking seas and have access from the cockpit. And have a watertight bulkhead between engine / rudder bay and the rest of the boat.

The SW1000 has outboards, accessed from the cockpit area.

[Le Doume]

Originally Posted by smj

If you would do some research you would realize that Corsair had been building trimarans in Vietnam for quite a few years before Seawind acquired Corsair. Maybe Richard Ward could see some benefits to building the Seawinds in Vietnam along with the Corsairs. Or maybe you just don't like Seawinds? Any reason for that?

Buddy,
I am FULLY aware of the Corsairs story , I do NOT need to do more research , and I have NEVER stated that I do not like Seawind ( I had one for 8 months back in 2002) and when you DO some research you will find that YES of course Management at Seawind could see HUGE benefit in building their cats over there , the cost price has dropped by a lot of $$ kk .
Having just placed an order for a 5X I do understand that each to his own when it comes to purchasing a Catamaran , horses for courses , and I shall repeat that I do think that the Seawinds are great vessels , just do not suit what I am looking for any longer .
So cheers for now .