Small Cat - Which One?

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by Robertcateran

I agree about the bow shape, but I rather like the centre cockpit as a feature that reduces the chance of being pooped. I also think the centre Nacelle is an nice way of getting decent seating room and reducing the chance of slapping.

Bridgedeck clearance of the cc29 is 0.6m or 6.7% which is to my knowledge standard. A nacelle reduces this and adds slamming, although not as much as a lower bridgedeck clearance.
I like the centre cockpit conceptually but then you have this massive cabin at the aft which brings weight into an area that should be kept light.

But I agree that Turner made a good job on eht accomodation as far as i can see

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by hannes99

Maybe I will have a look at the Catalac as I will be in that area next week anyway.

If interested in a Catalac - go to Welcome to MultiHull World - Catamaran,trimaran,prout,heavenly twins,patterson,summer twins,sirroco,catana,outremer,nautitech, privilege, solaris, sunbeam, Dean, Catalac, Lagoon, Multimarine,Voyager,fountaine pajot, Edel,multihulls,dragonfly,corsair,

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by hannes99

If something suitebale would cross my way I'd go that route for sure, even accepting lot's of compromises if the price is OK.

No idea what "Price is ok" means on this project.....and I am sure you have already looked.......

Midnight Rambler Home Page - Woods Sagitta- £20k ono.

[Tropic Cat]

That's a terrific price and sure cuts down the build time.

[Talbot]

For those interested in the differences under discussion:

Sagitta

Woods Sagitta

(You Tube)


Eclipse

Woods Eclipse

(You Tube - yacht at 12 kts)

KD860



Not a good sleeping position on the KD for use at sea. Very narrow hulls, by comparison with Woods designs. I would reckon that the Woods would be a little slower light, but would not be as affected by the weight.

For me, the Woods is a better design. The eclipse is only 0.9 larger than the Sagita, and the saloon is vastly superior.

[Tropic Cat]

Great info!!

[Talbot]

Comes from my desire to analyse data.

I have heard rumours of a stretched eclipse design.

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

No idea what "Price is ok" means on this project.....and I am sure you have already looked.......

Midnight Rambler Home Page - Woods Sagitta- £20k ono.

No, not yet as I wasn't able! I found that some weeks ago but the website had some issues and would not show the "for sale" page. So I thought the deal would be gone already.

The price seems OK, ~30k EUR where I guess about 15k EUR are in materials. Leaves 15k EUR for what is maybe 1000 hrs.
I first need to work out how to get it here. Finishing in the UK is not an option

[Woods Designs]

You will see a number of other Sagitta videos on my website. Including shots of the galley, saloon and cockpit. Also other sailing sequences, to windward in waves, steering with one finger etc. A search for www.sailingcatamarans.com on youtube will find most of them.

There are a number of Eclipse's sailing, but only mine has sailed over 15000 miles. (Talbot you are right). A number of Sagittas have made ocean passages eg S Africa to New Zealand and earlier this year UK to Dominican Republic)

Midnight Rambler is still for sale. It has the lengthened/raised cabin option.

News travels fast. I only began discussing building a stretched Eclipse as a production boat with a Canadian builder on Monday

I write this from Oakland Ca, next week I return to the UK for a month, then it is back to the US, to Virginia when we will start sailing our new (to us) cruising boat, the Romany. Already a Bahamas veteran and a big sister to the 28ft Gypsy

I hope this helps the discussion

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by Talbot

Not a good sleeping position on the KD for use at sea.

Mmmhh, why is the sleeping position not good at sea? I know it's up on bridgedeck where you move more than on sea level. But it's also near the center of buyoancy. On the Sagitta it's low on the waterline but at the end of the hull so you might sleep in an elevator.

Originally Posted by Talbot

Very narrow hulls, by comparison with Woods designs. I would reckon that the Woods would be a little slower light, but would not be as affected by the weight.

Looking at the hull shape and the payload gives me a different impression:
The Woods is very narrow at the waterline with a large flare above for liveability. The KD has flower pot shaped / trapezoid hulls just as the Proteus. At shoulder level both have about the same width except at the bows where KD is a bit finer.
My guess is the Woods will be affected more by weight than the KD. Both designers do not provide immersion rate at CWL so this is just a guess.

OTOH the Woods has less wetted surface so should be faster downwind if not overloaded. Upwind it will depend on efficiency of the AV panels compared to LAR keels (dagger will be more efficient for sure).

Originally Posted by Talbot

For me, the Woods is a better design. The eclipse is only 0.9 larger than the Sagita, and the saloon is vastly superior.

Eclipse is superior in most aspects. But given that build time and expense is in very close relation to empty weight it is also 40% more boat to build / buy compared to the Sagitta. 80% compared to the KD (if it's empty weight is correct, seems to be too light).

Originally Posted by Talbot

I have heard rumours of a stretched eclipse design.

You mean the Transit 38 or something in the middle?

[Tropic Cat]

Since Mr. Woods is posting here directly, you might direct your questions on Woods (his) designs to him just as directly.

[shnean66]

Of course I would be happy if Mr Woods would jump in. What is in your view the main differentiator when comparing Sagitta and KD860?
Which one is the better load carrier?
And which one will perform better at at load that is at the maximum of Sagittas payload?
Do you have any clue why the KD seems to be so much lighter?

Thank you!

[Woods Designs]

I assume you have now looked at all the Sagitta you tube videos. So you will have seen it sailing at 9 knots to windward, “bashing” to windward, relaxing in the comfortable cockpit, steering with one finger, overtaking other (larger) catamarans, the big galley and big saloon (incidentally there is more, much more on my “real” videos).

To get an impartial opinion you can look at postings about Sagitta on other multihull forums. The censors on this site ban mentioning their names, so you will need to email me to get the links if you cannot find them yourself. For example the Sagitta Mandu recently sailed the Atlantic and you can find full reports of that trip online.

I assume you will get at least as much information about the KD860 before deciding which boat is for you. After all, you wouldn’t buy a car just from the sales brochure. You cannot really tell how fast a car is, or how well it handles, just from its hp and kerbside weight.

I am not going to start comparing one of my designs to another, at least not in public.

However I will answer some questions in a general way. Clearly a smaller boat (like the KD860) should be lighter than Sagitta. It will probably also have less room, load carrying and be slower.

In my previous posting I mentioned the longer/higher cabin option. This turns the Sagitta into a shorter Eclipse, but at the expense of cockpit space and deck lockers. All of Sagitta’s accommodation is aft. That keeps the bows light and leaves room for sail lockers and other stowage. When we designed Sagitta we reckoned a 30ft cat with an accommodation of 20ft wide x 12ft long would be at least as good as a 30ft monohull with an accommodation “box” of 20ft long and 12ft wide. So it is not a small space, it is certainly bigger than an Iroquois, for example, which although the same length is 7ft narrower.

You queried the comments on the bunk position. I think most experienced catamaran sailors will agree with me when I say that the forward bunks are bouncy and the aft bunks are much more comfortable. Many people prefer sleeping fore and aft rather than athwartships. It is awkward getting into a transverse bunk, while bunks on the bridgedeck are high off the floor, which also makes access difficult. I always design bunks with good sitting headroom. I like reading in bed and having a coffee bought for me in the morning (fat chance) so a big comfortable bunk with useful shelving (coffee cup, glasses, books etc) is essential in my book.

I hope this helps you decide on the best boat for you.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

Woods Designs Sailing Catamarans

[shnean66]

Thanks for your kind answer.
I will try to get as much information on the KD as I can, of course. But given that there is only one finished boat the amount of information won't compare to the vast information available about your boats.
Unfortunately there won't be any sailing reports within a year or so, depending on progress of the various builds.

What makes me curious about the KD860 is that it is light at 1.4to, has a huge payload at 1.4to and provides space similar to your Sagitta.
This must come at a price so I'd assume it would be slow. But the speed prediction diagram for the KD equals pretty much the one you have shown in your Sagitta study plans.

I will be offline now for two weeks, family holidays!

Thanks!

[sailrjim]

"You queried the comments on the bunk position. I think most experienced catamaran sailors will agree with me when I say that the forward bunks are bouncy and the aft bunks are much more comfortable."

Another annecdotal data point: On the delivery of a FP Athena 38 down the east coast of the USA, off shore, I can say that the motion and noise from the sea was nearly unbearable in the forward berths, but not bothersome in the aft berths. Perhaps pecular to that vessel, but I noticed that any sort of noise from the rigging was magnified greatly in the forward berth but not in the aft.

As for athwartships berths, I can say that if the experience is remotely similar to a monohull, then for me these are only pracical while at anchor.