Performance vs Comfort 50-foot Cats - real difference

[Simi 60]

Having spent most of this year out @ Lady Musgrave island and surrounds we have seen hundreds of boats come out, most of them sailing cats, very few of them actually using any sails at all even in downhill 20 knot runs

All of them very obviously trying to be a bigger boats judging by the gear stacked up on them
Poor things ending up being nothing more than expensive motorised barges.

Which gets me back to my thoughts that a successful live aboard cruising cat that can actually sail needs to around 60ft - if you want to have nice things, comfort and some toys.

From someone who has built and sailed fast cruising catamarans and knows their limitations, it was disappointing to see so much big coin spent on so much fail.
Powered boats with far more comfort can be had for far less money.


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[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Why do you say no go for their use of polyester? Have you ever heard of an Outremer of any generation having blister problems? No, didn’t think so. That’s not to say that I like the Outremer new generation boats, nor do I agree with their current design philosophy.

I’m not sure how they build the current generation, but one thing I love about our first generation boat is having solid glass hulls from hull/deck join down. Sure makes hard grounding or collision incidents much easier to repair.

Because polyester is simply cheap and problematic material that is a noGo in this price class. And that you didn‘t heard of doesn‘t mean no problems existing.
Did you ever heard off mast breaking through deck due to construction issue on outremer 45...I guess not.
on the pontoon next to me is exactly one with this issue, guarded like Fort Knox that no one steps on board. Well my buddy is the appointed court surveyor and he confirmed it’s an construction issue...2nd I saw in person, he knows 5....and the excellent after sales service on this one ended up in front of court outremer completely blocking, so well not so great on a cristal clear construction issue.
Not bashing outremer, they are great cats...just facts

[Kinkircating]

This picture defines why we choose a sailing catamaran that actually sails vs. a comfy cat:

9.2kts of boat speed in 9.6kts of wind

[DragonflyBob]

I’ll go off the rails a bit and suggest the OP at least take a look at the Rapido 50 and Rapido 60 trimarans.

While you give up some space and load capacity, there is a significant increase in ease of handling and tri’s have a better motion in open water (IME). My experience includes several cruising charters of Privilige, Leopard, and Maine Cat catamarans plus a 6 year gig racing a Gunboat 66 in the Caribbean. I owned a Corsair tri for 16 years and last year my wife and I purchased our Dragonfly 32. Performance wise, tri’s should be better especially if you are going upwind.

There’s a reason tri’s are crushing it in the round the world records. You can push them a lot harder than a similarly sized catamaran.

Good luck in your research and final decision. You have a lot of good options out there.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by DragonflyBob

I’ll go off the rails a bit and suggest the OP at least take a look at the Rapido 50 and Rapido 60 trimarans.

While you give up some space and load capacity, there is a significant increase in ease of handling and tri’s have a better motion in open water (IME). My experience includes several cruising charters of Privilige, Leopard, and Maine Cat catamarans plus a 6 year gig racing a Gunboat 66 in the Caribbean. I owned a Corsair tri for 16 years and last year my wife and I purchased our Dragonfly 32. Performance wise, tri’s should be better especially if you are going upwind.

There’s a reason tri’s are crushing it in the round the world records. You can push them a lot harder than a similarly sized catamaran.

Good luck in your research and final decision. You have a lot of good options out there.

Only issue is that the Rapido may take a while to get built. Seems like they have a lot of delays.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Having spent most of this year out @ Lady Musgrave island and surrounds we have seen hundreds of boats come out, most of them sailing cats, very few of them actually using any sails at all even in downhill 20 knot runs

All of them very obviously trying to be a bigger boats judging by the gear stacked up on them
Poor things ending up being nothing more than expensive motorised barges.

Which gets me back to my thoughts that a successful live aboard cruising cat that can actually sail needs to around 60ft - if you want to have nice things, comfort and some toys.

From someone who has built and sailed fast cruising catamarans and knows their limitations, it was disappointing to see so much big coin spent on so much fail.
Powered boats with far more comfort can be had for far less money.


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agree with all of what you say.

here my observations/thoughts after nearly decade full time on board.

We like space on our L 400. If I decide to go performance would agree boat with same space as L 400 and 60 ft waterline. Trouble is that this would take another 10 + years rotting in some disgusting office. Yeah, if i expected to live and be healthy for another 100 years, i would go for it but insurance statistics says my life remaining is much shorter.

With performance cat you buy sailability ahead of beam. Following seas, not much advantage as evidenced by CF user ID Django lagoon 380 in ARC where he came way ahead of much more (on paper) performant boats.

So if you plan sailing following seas performance cat is not much benefit.

Also regarding weight, that performance edge evaporates quickly with adding stuff so you will need to be tyrant to your wife and kids and guests.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by chubby

imo, for the best performance/$$$.. the best decision would be to simply buy for more waterline length

More W/L = less docks available.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by geoleo

More W/L = less docks available.

More waterline length means we have a boat that can actually cruise in comfort and stay out indefinitely.
Haven't used a dock in 7 years

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

agree with all of what you say.

here my observations/thoughts after nearly decade full time on board.

We like space on our L 400. If I decide to go performance would agree boat with same space as L 400 and 60 ft waterline. Trouble is that this would take another 10 + years rotting in some disgusting office .

Yep

We were half way in on building a 55ft cat that nearly put me in an early grave in my 40's
Never could get back into it so stepped sideways into our current vessel @49 for a lot less coin than it'd cost to finish the cat and zero effort.
And recently sold that part built cat for more than expected

Yeah,I miss the sailing but the comfort and load carrying ability we enjoy now is next level and more than makes up for it.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by geoleo

More W/L = less docks available.

Yes, but if you’re distance cruising then you can by-pass those areas. Less dock availability is only a problem for marina-based cruisers or for home berthing.

In our 6 years of owning a 54’ cat we’ve never regretted the waterline length. But it certainly does limit the docks, mooring buoys, and haul outs available. For haul outs at least we can use commercial yards if recreational ones aren’t available - our length and displacement are negligible, while our 24’ beam is not that different from 60’+ power boats such as tugs or fishing boats. For berthing, we anchor if nothing else available - it’s what we prefer anyway.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Yes, but if you’re distance cruising then you can by-pass those areas. Less dock availability is only a problem for marina-based cruisers or for home berthing.

In our 6 years of owning a 54’ cat we’ve never regretted the waterline length. But it certainly does limit the docks, mooring buoys, and haul outs available. For haul outs at least we can use commercial yards if recreational ones aren’t available - our length and displacement are negligible, while our 24’ beam is not that different from 60’+ power boats such as tugs or fishing boats. For berthing, we anchor if nothing else available - it’s what we prefer anyway.

If you can bypass but if you have an emergency and next possible lifting dock is hundred miles away you are screwed. Also costs go expoentially up with W/L as that automatically mean bigger rig, bigger engine......
They are more and more areas you cannot anchor and need a mooring ball. If you are too long, you miss out on this area.
I will vote for the opposite, go as small as you can as costs will pile up anyway but being eg 44ft with a 7m beam means you will get berth,mooring,haul out when needed and give you more freedom...
44/45 is definitly enough length for long distance ocean cruising...

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If you can bypass but if you have an emergency and next possible lifting dock is hundred miles away you are screwed. Also costs go expoentially up with W/L as that automatically mean bigger rig, bigger engine......
They are more and more areas you cannot anchor and need a mooring ball. If you are too long, you miss out on this area.
I will vote for the opposite, go as small as you can as costs will pile up anyway but being eg 44ft with a 7m beam means you will get berth,mooring,haul out when needed and give you more freedom...
44/45 is definitly enough length for long distance ocean cruising...

Or you could go with a Prout Snowgoose, 37’ long and a 15’ beam which could fit into a standard slip and also take on the French canals, before you start your circumnavigation. The choices are endless!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by smj

Or you could go with a Prout Snowgoose, 37’ long and a 15’ beam which could fit into a standard slip and also take on the French canals, before you start your circumnavigation. The choices are endless!

37 Prout aka the bridgedeck slammer...doable yes comfort 0 and perfromance 0...so not that endless choice.
I think there was a common sense that you need min 40ft to have some comfort in blue water sailing due to length of ocean wave and eg hobby horsing. Also payload is way too limited on the smaller then 40ft cats.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

37 Prout aka the bridgedeck slammer...doable yes comfort 0 and perfromance 0...so not that endless choice.
I think there was a common sense that you need min 40ft to have some comfort in blue water sailing due to length of ocean wave and eg hobby horsing. Also payload is way too limited on the smaller then 40ft cats.

The Prout Snowgoose probably still has more safely sailed ocean miles under their keels than any other sailing catamaran produced, so seaworthiness or payload doesn’t seem to be a problem, the bridgedeck slamming and performance wouldn’t work for me personally.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by smj

The Prout Snowgoose probably still has more safely sailed ocean miles under their keels than any other sailing catamaran produced, so seaworthiness or payload doesn’t seem to be a problem, the bridgedeck slamming and performance wouldn’t work for me personally.

A Prout Snowgoose Elite catamaran capsized at anchor (with no sails up) some years ago in Greece. This event has hurt the model’s reputation for seaworthiness.