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Old 01-01-2018, 18:41   #1066
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
OK, so you will not be able to motor into 40kts once the batteries are down. Half power is not enough to climb steep waves. You will be safer to stay at anchor.
Heading into a 40kn wind I can't imaging any efficient cat including 44c need full power for long periods. Indeed as 44C indicated he has had to back off as it would be too rough using full power - as I read his comments.

I certainly believe the Oram he was on with little Torquedos was very underpowered.
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Old 01-01-2018, 18:54   #1067
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
OK, so you will not be able to motor into 40kts once the batteries are down. Half power is not enough to climb steep waves. You will be safer to stay at anchor.
Well it's always safer to stay at anchor, isn't it?

Instead of bagging EP all the time, why don't you get yourself on an electric boat and experience it? Then you can tell us all what you can and can't do with EP.

You will be surprised to find out that the ability of an electric motor to push against resistance is quite surprising, at least it was to me. Try it sometime, then you can report back to us.

Motoring into 40 knots, using max power, is a short term proposition ( the "hour of power") to get out of trouble or potential trouble.

If you are inclined to bash into 40 knot seas with your engines for extended periods of time, you are suffering from what I call the "Car syndrome". The Car syndrome is sailors who think that, just like we get used to doing with our motor vehicles, you can go anywhere, anytime, in any weather conditions, by just turning the key.
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Old 01-01-2018, 19:00   #1068
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Heading into a 40kn wind I can't imaging any efficient cat including 44c need full power for long periods. Indeed as 44C indicated he has had to back off as it would be too rough using full power - as I read his comments.

I certainly believe the Oram he was on with little Torquedos was very underpowered.
I don't believe 44C was motoring into 40 knot winds 20 NM offshore for hours on end. I believe his outboards would have been cavitating like crazy, and that's why he slowed down, because he likes his boat, and doesn't want to break anything. Quite a reasonable action.

He takes lots of video of his sailing and I'm sure he would have captured that dramatic event, so maybe we can see it?
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Old 01-01-2018, 19:10   #1069
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Well it's always safer to stay at anchor, isn't it?

Instead of bagging EP all the time, why don't you get yourself on an electric boat and experience it? Then you can tell us all what you can and can't do with EP.

You will be surprised to find out that the ability of an electric motor to push against resistance is quite surprising, at least it was to me. Try it sometime, then you can report back to us.

Motoring into 40 knots, using max power, is a short term proposition ( the "hour of power") to get out of trouble or potential trouble.

If you are inclined to bash into 40 knot seas with your engines for extended periods of time, you are suffering from what I call the "Car syndrome". The Car syndrome is sailors who think that, just like we get used to doing with our motor vehicles, you can go anywhere, anytime, in any weather conditions, by just turning the key.
I'm not bagging EP. I'm simply saying when you equip with EP that can't equal diesel, you will not be able to do the same things. If you are comfortable with that, wonderful. I would love an EP system that performed as well as my diesel, for like weight and cost. AFAICT, there isn't such a system, yet.

I certainly hope your weather forecasting never has any surprises.
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Old 01-01-2018, 19:18   #1070
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Heading into a 40kn wind I can't imaging any efficient cat including 44c need full power for long periods. Indeed as 44C indicated he has had to back off as it would be too rough using full power - as I read his comments.

I certainly believe the Oram he was on with little Torquedos was very underpowered.
It takes power to climb the face of a wave. You do it for as long as the cell is on top of you.
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Old 01-01-2018, 21:42   #1071
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Yes, I've only done a few miles in the past seven years full time cruising. And never been at sea in a bit of wind.

As for the 6.5 kts..... motoring south next to Urangan pier with an incoming tide..... sound familiar? Exactly how strong was that tide? And how good was that reverse thrust pulling up at the marina? Wonder if you tell customers about that? How about here on the forum?

Okay, now we know that you are an experienced sailor. But, I still do not have any data! So, how many nautical miles did you do in these seven years of continuous cruising? 10,000 - 15,000 would sound like a minimum? And where did you do these miles? In the tropics motoring in the doldrums ? Or cruising in the high latitudes? Of how many different boats do you have experience? And by the way, drinking beer on anchor does not count…
I know that you like innuendos and to muddy the water. But, let me be clear, I do not!

My point is that the new German Shionning equipped with twin 3.6 kW performs perfectly in line with what would be expected from an equivalent twin 10Hp diesel installation. And it is also very much the same performance as what I have found in the past on Oram C44 equipped with Torqeedo Cruise 4.0. If you intend to prove me wrong, please come up with a bit more data than personal attacks and innuendos.

And no I do not have any problem in sharing information on this forum. Since you bring it up let me share the following emails from your mate Brian. (I am assuming you are referring to him?)

And yes you are right, the initial propeller used on Brian’s boat was not very good in reverse. But, we got some reasonable results using another propellor. Again this is one of your futile attempts at muddying the water, and totally beside the point.

Further, except for my Torqeedo Deep Blue customer, I do not have one customer with an installation with performance below the performance estimate calculated for them. And this includes Kato, whose data I will share with you in another post.

Brian’s email below:

Hi Claud, The Video looks really good.
We are currently in Gladestone. We had a couple of perfect weather days at Lady Musgrave and have spent time in the Burnett River, Round Hill and Pancake creek.

We now have put about 15 hours run time on the port motor and have about 26 on the stb motor.
Only issue I have had is that the port motor shuts down with an e 46 code each time if I tried to run it at 4000 w for more than 5 minutes. It restarted immediately with a throttle reset. I will try this with the stb motor sometime to see if this is common to both. This could justify Torqeedos concerns about cooling the head unit.
Apart from that we have continuously motored on both motrs for up to 6 hours at 2200 watts on each no problems. This seems to be our peak break even output of the genset given its other ship loads. This gives us about 5.8 to 6 knots in real terms.

Other performance indicators:

We had 18 knots true on the nose motoring into the Burnett River we where still doing 4.8 knots at 4400 watts total draw.

Running port only at 1700 watts at 3.4 knots, making bread, and water and washing the clothes.

port only at 3400w and 4.7 knot

No problems motoring against 2 to 3 knots of current coming into Gladeston habour.

By the way the boat sails fast, it gets to 13 knots easy on a reach.

In 10 to 12 true we do 8 to 9 knots, in 22 apparent with double reefed main and reefed genoa we were doing 11.5 knots at 66 degrees. Earlier saw 15.7 knots prior to reefing, the boat felt safe at this speed but we were getting knocked around by the 1.7 metre short seas, so had to slow her down.

We will be back down Hervey bay late this month and in Moreton Bay in November.


Below is with one Cruise 4.0 only:

Hi Claude, Had a good test in light air today and* motored or motor sailed continuously for 6.5 hours.
I had a great opportunity to test performance in glassy conditions with no wind and no tide. Confirmed by drifting for 3 minutes at 0.0 knots.
*
Check out test results:
*
250w*** 2.4 knots at 48.8v
500w*** 2.9 knots at 48.5v
750w*** 3.4 knots at 48.3v
1000w*** 3.9 knots at 47.9v
1250w*** 4.2 knots at*47.6v
1500w *** 4.3 knots at 47.3v
1750w*** 4.5 knots at 47.1v
2000w*** 4.7knots at 46.7v
2500w*** 4.9 knots at 46.7v
3000w*** 5.2 knots at 46.3v
peak on battery 4250w at 5.7 knots at 45.1v
*
Peak on genset 4650w at 6.1 knots at 52v
*
Only flaw in getting data, I forgot I had about 800mm of dagger board down.
Also with the drive only on one side there is between 3 an5 degrees of helm needed to compensate.
Also the Prop was on its factory*transom setting and thus somewhat under the boat and not parrallel thrust wise.I will move the stop pin up one or to settings.
*
Figures here confirm that we are using 1/2 the power for the same speed as the epods!!!
*
Also it looks like our most economic way to cruise ( the doldrums) is to run in the 4.3 knot range for 1/2 hour on battery than the same for 1/2 hour on genset. Doing this the genset can run the drive and recover the batteries at the same time and then cycle to battery only again. This short test indicates we are likely to cover 8.6 nm on less than 1 litre of diesal.
*
We are so impressed that we are keen to get up the Noosa river at the first good weather window to graft the Torqueedo to our swing legs. We have even found the cash do buy the second one.
*
Can you advise on the best time or times for you if we are to come up and have you advise on crossing the noosa bar?
*
We need 900mm clear under as we can not kick our stb rudder with the Out board mount on it.
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Old 01-01-2018, 23:18   #1072
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Well it's always safer to stay at anchor, isn't it?

Instead of bagging EP all the time, why don't you get yourself on an electric boat and experience it? Then you can tell us all what you can and can't do with EP.

You will be surprised to find out that the ability of an electric motor to push against resistance is quite surprising, at least it was to me. Try it sometime, then you can report back to us.

Motoring into 40 knots, using max power, is a short term proposition ( the "hour of power") to get out of trouble or potential trouble.

If you are inclined to bash into 40 knot seas with your engines for extended periods of time, you are suffering from what I call the "Car syndrome". The Car syndrome is sailors who think that, just like we get used to doing with our motor vehicles, you can go anywhere, anytime, in any weather conditions, by just turning the key.
It may come as a terrible shock to you, but sometimes weather forecasts aren't entirely accurate.

For instance you might set out on an eighty mile passage in favourable conditions with a good forecast.

Then with 30 miles to go, you get storm warnings. And then the storm. Straight on the nose.

So you could just keep sailing, with no idea exactly how strong the wind will get, in near zero visibility due to the torrential rain, with the prospect of a long slow bash ahead of you. Or you could turn around.

Or you could motor. Chances are it won't last long. But sometimes they do last a few hours.

This is called reality. It isn't always the same as the theory.
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Old 01-01-2018, 23:34   #1073
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[QUOTE=Claude-D;2547098]Okay, now we know that you are an experienced sailor. But, I still do not have any data! So, how many nautical miles did you do in these seven years of continuous cruising? 10,000 - 15,000 would sound like a minimum? And where did you do these miles? In the tropics motoring in the doldrums ? Or cruising in the high latitudes? Of how many different boats do you have experience? And by the way, drinking beer on anchor does not count…
I know that you like innuendos and to muddy the water. But, let me be clear, I do not!

My point is that the new German Shionning equipped with twin 3.6 kW performs perfectly in line with what would be expected from an equivalent twin 10Hp diesel installation. And it is also very much the same performance as what I have found in the past on Oram C44 equipped with Torqeedo Cruise 4.0. If you intend to prove me wrong, please come up with a bit more data than personal attacks and innuendos.

And no I do not have any problem in sharing information on this forum. Since you bring it up let me share the following emails from your mate Brian. (I am assuming you are referring to him?)

And yes you are right, the initial propeller used on Brian’s boat was not very good in reverse. But, we got some reasonable results using another propellor. Again this is one of your futile attempts at muddying the water, and totally beside the point..[/QUOTE

Gee Claude, selective memory or what?

When Bob put Bryan's boat into reverse, the props weren't a problem. Because the motors simply stopped. The much vaunted electric thrust was only notable for its absence. There was NONE!

Surely you remember?

Would you like me to get Bryan to send you an email with his thoughts regarding Torqueedo now? And maybe how they compare to outboards?

Would you post that on here?
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Old 02-01-2018, 00:44   #1074
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post


It may come as a terrible shock to you, but sometimes weather forecasts aren't entirely accurate.

For instance you might set out on an eighty mile passage in favourable conditions with a good forecast.

Then with 30 miles to go, you get storm warnings. And then the storm. Straight on the nose.

So you could just keep sailing, with no idea exactly how strong the wind will get, in near zero visibility due to the torrential rain, with the prospect of a long slow bash ahead of you. Or you could turn around.

Or you could motor. Chances are it won't last long. But sometimes they do last a few hours.

This is called reality. It isn't always the same as the theory.
Yeah, I do get that. What do you know? the wind blows. I have done offshore passages, I do get that weather can go from good to bad, unexpectedly.

On one trip to Lord Howe & back, we got smashed. But that cat could sail, so we reduced sail accordingly and fore-reached into it alot more comfortably than motoring into it. The boat was much more steady with some sail up, than without. That was 2 full days of fully developed seas. Would you have motored for 2 days and nights?

So 44, educate me. Why did you motor instead of sail? Is your Oram set up for heavy weather sailing? Do you have a furling staysail?
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:20   #1075
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Yeah, I do get that. What do you know? the wind blows. I have done offshore passages, I do get that weather can go from good to bad, unexpectedly.

On one trip to Lord Howe & back, we got smashed. But that cat could sail, so we reduced sail accordingly and fore-reached into it alot more comfortably than motoring into it. The boat was much more steady with some sail up, than without. That was 2 full days of fully developed seas. Would you have motored for 2 days and nights?

So 44, educate me. Why did you motor instead of sail? Is your Oram set up for heavy weather sailing? Do you have a furling staysail?
We motored because there wasn't too far to go, by motoring we'd arrive in daylight, there was no knowing how strong the downburst wind would be, it was clearly going to absolutely piss down with rain, and I guess I'm less heroic than you.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:30   #1076
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;2547110]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claude-D View Post
Okay, now we know that you are an experienced sailor. But, I still do not have any data! So, how many nautical miles did you do in these seven years of continuous cruising? 10,000 - 15,000 would sound like a minimum? And where did you do these miles? In the tropics motoring in the doldrums ? Or cruising in the high latitudes? Of how many different boats do you have experience? And by the way, drinking beer on anchor does not count…
I know that you like innuendos and to muddy the water. But, let me be clear, I do not!

My point is that the new German Shionning equipped with twin 3.6 kW performs perfectly in line with what would be expected from an equivalent twin 10Hp diesel installation. And it is also very much the same performance as what I have found in the past on Oram C44 equipped with Torqeedo Cruise 4.0. If you intend to prove me wrong, please come up with a bit more data than personal attacks and innuendos.

And no I do not have any problem in sharing information on this forum. Since you bring it up let me share the following emails from your mate Brian. (I am assuming you are referring to him?)

And yes you are right, the initial propeller used on Brian’s boat was not very good in reverse. But, we got some reasonable results using another propellor. Again this is one of your futile attempts at muddying the water, and totally beside the point..[/QUOTE

Gee Claude, selective memory or what?

When Bob put Bryan's boat into reverse, the props weren't a problem. Because the motors simply stopped. The much vaunted electric thrust was only notable for its absence. There was NONE!

Surely you remember?

Would you like me to get Bryan to send you an email with his thoughts regarding Torqueedo now? And maybe how they compare to outboards?

Would you post that on here?

Yes, I did forgot about the motor quitting in reverse. But, to be frank, that was a common recurrence, so I just cannot remember them all.

However, you are once more missing the point! We are not talking here about the reliability of the Torqeedo here. We are talking about the power delivered by an electric motor, and the fact that the Cruise 4.0 delivers the equivalent of the power delivered by a Yamaha 9.9 or that the 3.6kW motor in the German Shionning is equivalent to a 10hp diesel inboard.

Brian is clearly saying in his email that the power delivered by his Cruise 4 is the same as a Yamaha 9.9. Are you saying that he is lying?

Yes, I would very much like you to email Brian and ask him his opinion on the power delivered by the Cruise 4.0 in comparison to the Yamaha 9.9. Obviously not how it compares to his 60 Hp outboard!! Or how reliable or how pretty it is or whatever other ideas you may have…

Stick to the subject… We are comparing power delivery between electric motors and diesel or petrol motors.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:41   #1077
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Claude-D View Post

Yes, I did forgot about the motor quitting in reverse. But, to be frank, that was a common recurrence, so I just cannot remember them all.

However, you are once more missing the point! We are not talking here about the reliability of the Torqeedo here.
But EV fans tell us that electric motors are so reliable because they have fewer parts.

Electric motors and controllers are not a new idea, so no reason to expect a sudden massive improvement in reliability.
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:32   #1078
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
But EV fans tell us that electric motors are so reliable because they have fewer parts.

Electric motors and controllers are not a new idea, so no reason to expect a sudden massive improvement in reliability.
I know this may be too subtle a concept for you to digest, but the references to faults referenced in other posts refer to ONE BRAND ONLY, for which it is legend.

Extrapolating from the Torqeedo dramas to all other brands and models of electric motors is an ignorant ( in the true sense of the word = not knowing) thing to do.

And another newsflash for you, the technology is advancing very rapidly indeed and improved reliability goes along with that. Even an engineer can understand that, no?

We realise it fits in with your zealousness to discredit EP at every turn, but it does a disservice to vendors, of which there are several including the namesake of this thread, who produce higher quality product that DOES fulfill the expectation of reliability for electric motors.

I know you will be interested to learn that Oceanvolt in the 200 odd installations of their motors, have had one warranty claim. And what do you know, that was for a failed battery.

Yes, yes, I know. They are just marketing weasels, and scoundrels and liars and there are probably dozens of very unhappy customers, who for some mysterious reason just seem to remain invisible. Maybe Oceanvolt paid them all off, eh? Yeah, that must be it.....
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:38   #1079
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
We motored because there wasn't too far to go, by motoring we'd arrive in daylight, there was no knowing how strong the downburst wind would be, it was clearly going to absolutely piss down with rain, and I guess I'm less heroic than you.
Thanks 44 Nobody's ever called me heroic before
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:09   #1080
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Extrapolating from the Torqeedo dramas to all other brands and models of electric motors is an ignorant ( in the true sense of the word = not knowing) thing to do.

And another newsflash for you, the technology is advancing very rapidly indeed and improved reliability goes along with that. Even an engineer can understand that, no?
Except the technology isn't really changing. Electric motors, controllers, batteries and charging systems as they are being used in electric boats are all well established technologies that have largely reached peak efficiency. There simply isn't a lot of room for improvement.

When not cruising we travel in the RV and we have lots of friends with golf carts. Electric golf carts have been around for decades and are produced by the thousands (ie: well established technology that in theory should have the bugs worked out). Pretty much everyone says to go with the gas powered carts because the electric ones are always breaking down. Other than using lithium batteries (which isn't a new technology), the electric boats are pretty much the same only living in a salty environment.

I have nothing against electric propulsion, just against those who claim it has magical properties.
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