New vs used

[cemdev]

I'm currently researching buying my first boat. It'll be a cat. Looking at adventura 37 or nautitech open 40.

I've been watching a ridiculous amount of sailing youtube videos, and haven't really found any using either of those boats (if you know of any - please let me know!) - but have watched a few of the bigger channels that have recently moved onto new boats, and they all seem to be having tons of issues. La vagabonde - their diesel engine needed to be replaced, wynns - they're new HH44 had a myriad of issues, and those guys with the new Seawind seem to having never-ending issues with a variety of items.

I was really thinking of buying new because I wanted to avoid having a ton of issues in the first year or so while I get adapted. If I had the issues the guys with the Seawind were having, it would be a real challenge. Those guys are struggling and they have plenty of experience.

These youtube videos are making me think there's maybe not a ton of advantage buying new.

I'm plenty handy, happy to work on things/fix them - have a decent amount of (land-based) experience with plumbing, electricity, solar, renovation, construction, so it doesn't put me off - but I'd really like not to have to deal with that for the first 6-12 months while I'm getting used to sailing in general. Seems significantly harder working on a boat.

Lots of rambling - my question is: What experiences have you had with new vs used (assuming good surveyor and buying something well maintained and upgraded). Should I give more weight to a used cat? The other advantage is that a used cat would be available in a much shorter time frame than a new one.

[Jammer]

1) YouTube sailing channels are not real life, particularly not the popular ones. They are highly curated storytelling that is scripted and edited to draw and hold viewer attention. Good sailing makes for boring videos.



2) New boats do have their own problems. They are also expensive. If you have the money to buy a new boat, you can afford to buy a really solid used boat and pay someone else to go through it for a month or two before you start sailing it in earnest. With cats you do have to be a little more careful as there is not the large pool of solid used boats that exists with monos.


On a well-found boat it's actually pretty unusual for truly unexpected emergent problems to arise out of nowhere. Most of the drama comes from things that were known to be a little dodgy. I had one of the pelican hook latches on my lifelines explode the other day, for example, but I've known for a year and a half that I need to replace the lifelines and all the hardware.

[cemdev]

I take your point about youtube isn't real life - and yet, how else to learn/gain experience without actually getting on a ton of boats as crew (not an option for me atm).

What do you mean by paying someone else to go through it for a month or two before hand? I don't understand. Hiring a skipper to sail it with/without me?

My assumption was that a new boat should have less issues than a well-maintained, say 4-5 year old boat. But that does not necessarily seem to be the case. It looks like maybe those will have the initial issues worked out, and also likely some decent upgrades. I'm just looking for opinions.

Originally Posted by Jammer

1) YouTube sailing channels are not real life, particularly not the popular ones. They are highly curated storytelling that is scripted and edited to draw and hold viewer attention. Good sailing makes for boring videos.



2) New boats do have their own problems. They are also expensive. If you have the money to buy a new boat, you can afford to buy a really solid used boat and pay someone else to go through it for a month or two before you start sailing it in earnest. With cats you do have to be a little more careful as there is not the large pool of solid used boats that exists with monos.


On a well-found boat it's actually pretty unusual for truly unexpected emergent problems to arise out of nowhere. Most of the drama comes from things that were known to be a little dodgy. I had one of the pelican hook latches on my lifelines explode the other day, for example, but I've known for a year and a half that I need to replace the lifelines and all the hardware.

[wholybee]

Hands down, I would buy used. You should be able to find one that has been well maintained and all the warranty issues are dealt with. The few people I know that bought a new boat still had unresolved warranty issues after nearly a year.

Boats are not mass produced in huge quantities like say, a car. So, there is a lot more variation from boat to boat, more mistakes, etc. Especially with all the gear that is installed in it that is made by someone other than the builder. Many problems just don't show up until you are using it.

A parallel, my parents bought a travel trailer a few years ago. It was a disaster of warranty claims. Every time they used it for the first year something new didn't work. The leveling jacks, the controller for the lights, the batteries didn't charge, the blackwater tank had construction debris in it and wouldn't empty, the popouts stopped working. Much of it was stuff that if I owned and used it. I would just take care of myself. But being older and never worked on something like that before they were not able to- they just wanted it to work. Boats are kind of like that.

[cemdev]

Yes, this is what it's starting to look like. Buying something a few years old with all the kinks worked out and some upgrades looks like it may well be the better option. Thanks, this is very helpful.

Originally Posted by wholybee

Hands down, I would buy used. You should be able to find one that has been well maintained and all the warranty issues are dealt with. The few people I know that bought a new boat still had unresolved warranty issues after nearly a year.

Boats are not mass produced in huge quantities like say, a car. So, there is a lot more variation from boat to boat, more mistakes, etc. Especially with all the gear that is installed in it that is made by someone other than the builder. Many problems just don't show up until you are using it.

A parallel, my parents bought a travel trailer a few years ago. It was a disaster of warranty claims. Every time they used it for the first year something new didn't work. The leveling jacks, the controller for the lights, the batteries didn't charge, the blackwater tank had construction debris in it and wouldn't empty, the popouts stopped working. Much of it was stuff that if I owned and used it. I would just take care of myself. But being older and never worked on something like that before they were not able to- they just wanted it to work. Boats are kind of like that.

[JPA Cate]

Unfortunately, even brand new boats fresh from the factory, do have problems that need taking care of in their first year, a fact that is very disappointing to new owners, but should be anticipated.

Plus that, though, there are cost costs of commissioning it to your anticipated use: better sails, better anchors, just about everything to make it appropriate to purpose.

Buy used, in good nick, not a charter boat, but from a private party who has just returned from a circumnavigation, or had the boat fitted out for high latitude sailing, if that is your interest. Most of what you will want will be there. Then don't change anything in the first year, as you get used to things.

I confess I feel a little concerned, in that your post gave me the idea that this would be your first boat, and you're not having enough time now to crew for others. It makes me wonder about your experience with sailing and cruising: do you already know you like it or is it a leap into the unknown? You have good skills in that upkeep does not seem to bother you, but are you crafty enough to keep things simple? In general, finding out if you like sailing before you spend your hard earned cash is a prudent plan. Some seamanship can be taught, but one develops it by experimenting under stress and learning what works, for you, for your boat.

Ann

[HillbillyGeek]

You touched a nerve that got me to make my first post after reading CF off and on for many years. I also have watched way too many sailing YouTubes and I'm also getting ready to buy my first sailboat. I did own a trawler yacht for 7 years so am very comfortable on any system on a boat besides mast/sails/rigging. As someone who spent a good chunk of his career in manufacturing, some of the issues these folks have been seeing on their new boats are stunning. It is important to separate the issues of dealing with one of the first boats of a model off the line versus things that are just workmanship issues. My feed has shown me some lesser known channels dealing with the latter issues from high volume producers on existing models and horrible warranty support from their selling brokers. Sure drama equals view$ on YouTube but their experiences have been horrible.

While I would love the latest design innovations, I have decided to get a cheaper and older monohull to start with. Sail it for a season. Then start upgrading/refreshing systems while looking for deals. I might eventually buy a new cat, but prefer to make any mistakes on a cheaper boat. It is harder to buy a used cat because most are ex charters and not owners versions so the market is tiny. In my case, I need to make sure my admiral and dogs are up for this lifestyle. I've lived it before on my trawler, but they have only tasted it in small doses. YMMV.

[cemdev]

Yes, lightly used is starting to look like the better option for me. I have years of experience sailing dinghies, started when i was 5 years old, and have crewed on yachts a few times. I know enough to sure. It's not a bigger leap than many others I've taken. My concern is I'm right at that point to know just enough to be dangerous, which is why I'm spending lots of time now learning as much as I can about buying/ownership/maintenance.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Unfortunately, even brand new boats fresh from the factory, do have problems that need taking care of in their first year, a fact that is very disappointing to new owners, but should be anticipated.

Plus that, though, there are cost costs of commissioning it to your anticipated use: better sails, better anchors, just about everything to make it appropriate to purpose.

Buy used, in good nick, not a charter boat, but from a private party who has just returned from a circumnavigation, or had the boat fitted out for high latitude sailing, if that is your interest. Most of what you will want will be there. Then don't change anything in the first year, as you get used to things.

I confess I feel a little concerned, in that your post gave me the idea that this would be your first boat, and you're not having enough time now to crew for others. It makes me wonder about your experience with sailing and cruising: do you already know you like it or is it a leap into the unknown? You have good skills in that upkeep does not seem to bother you, but are you crafty enough to keep things simple? In general, finding out if you like sailing before you spend your hard earned cash is a prudent plan. Some seamanship can be taught, but one develops it by experimenting under stress and learning what works, for you, for your boat.

Ann

[cemdev]

Yes, exactly! You get it. I also thought about buying a mono for a year, but have decided (i think!) against that for now and going straight for a small cat.

Would love to hear how you go, it will be 12-18 months before I buy, not sure when you're planning to take the plunge.

I also have a dog, and that's one of the considerations and limitations I have with this move.

Originally Posted by HillbillyGeek

You touched a nerve that got me to make my first post after reading CF off and on for many years. I also have watched way too many sailing YouTubes and I'm also getting ready to buy my first sailboat. I did own a trawler yacht for 7 years so am very comfortable on any system on a boat besides mast/sails/rigging. As someone who spent a good chunk of his career in manufacturing, some of the issues these folks have been seeing on their new boats are stunning. It is important to separate the issues of dealing with one of the first boats of a model off the line versus things that are just workmanship issues. My feed has shown me some lesser known channels dealing with the latter issues from high volume producers on existing models and horrible warranty support from their selling brokers. Sure drama equals view$ on YouTube but their experiences have been horrible.

While I would love the latest design innovations, I have decided to get a cheaper and older monohull to start with. Sail it for a season. Then start upgrading/refreshing systems while looking for deals. I might eventually buy a new cat, but prefer to make any mistakes on a cheaper boat. It is harder to buy a used cat because most are ex charters and not owners versions so the market is tiny. In my case, I need to make sure my admiral and dogs are up for this lifestyle. I've lived it before on my trawler, but they have only tasted it in small doses. YMMV.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by cemdev

What do you mean by paying someone else to go through it for a month or two before hand? I don't understand. Hiring a skipper to sail it with/without me?

I was referring to the process of giving a list of deficiencies to be addressed to a boatyard, receiving an estimate, and having half the items fixed for twice the money originally estimated in three times the agreed-upon time.

It takes even longer if you're not there every day to hound them, but I digress.

[HillbillyGeek]

It's crazy that we make huge purchase decisions based upon how easy our dogs can get up and down the companion way ladder or board from the dingy! I get overwhelmed with the big design options on cats - especially the helm positions. But there are mundane things about spending lots of time on a boat that YouTube doesn't convey. The smells. The swells even when tied to the dock. The noisy neighbors. The heat. The bugs. The upsides outweigh the downsides for me. Just want to make sure it works for my partner.

[cemdev]

hahaha. ah, ok. having built houses, I'm very familiar with the concept. Unfortunately. :/

Originally Posted by Jammer

I was referring to the process of giving a list of deficiencies to be addressed to a boatyard, receiving an estimate, and having half the items fixed for twice the money originally estimated in three times the agreed-upon time.

It takes even longer if you're not there every day to hound them, but I digress.

[cemdev]

That saying - happy wife, happy life. It's also happy dog, happy life. IME anyways.

And yes - it is crazy what we spend on our pups. Without explaining why, I estimate my dog has cost me at least $50k by now. And almost none of that is vet bills/food etc. Just the decisions I've made and their consequences. And would make again tomorrow.

And yes - agreed. The heat and the bugs. Never covered on youtube. But I've spent enough time in the caribbean to know they must be issues. Same as on land tho. Screens on the windows, and AC, just as on land, though it should actually be better out on the ocean.

Originally Posted by HillbillyGeek

It's crazy that we make huge purchase decisions based upon how easy our dogs can get up and down the companion way ladder or board from the dingy! I get overwhelmed with the big design options on cats - especially the helm positions. But there are mundane things about spending lots of time on a boat that YouTube doesn't convey. The smells. The swells even when tied to the dock. The noisy neighbors. The heat. The bugs. The upsides outweigh the downsides for me. Just want to make sure it works for my partner.

[JPA Cate]

Ah, the bugs, due to my own ignorance about sandflies, I once had over 600 (where I quit counting) sandfly bites, on my legs, and it was quite unpleasant!

@cemdev, looking forward, the dog will age faster than you, so important to have ways in mind to make a safe ramp for it to be able to use. Consider re-homing it if you have a circumnavigation in mind, because the thought of leaving it behind if it gets washed overboard on a dark and stormy night is even worse (at least to some of us). Sorry to mention something so awful, but it happened to some acquaintances of ours, and they couldn't get back to their dog, and it still haunted the woman when she told me about it.

Ann

[cemdev]

That's awful. No circumnavigation planned.2- 3 years around the Bahamas and Caribbean and we'll see from there

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Ah, the bugs, due to my own ignorance about sandflies, I once had over 600 (where I quit counting) sandfly bites, on my legs, and it was quite unpleasant!

@cemdev, looking forward, the dog will age faster than you, so important to have ways in mind to make a safe ramp for it to be able to use. Consider re-homing it if you have a circumnavigation in mind, because the thought of leaving it behind if it gets washed overboard on a dark and stormy night is even worse (at least to some of us). Sorry to mention something so awful, but it happened to some acquaintances of ours, and they couldn't get back to their dog, and it still haunted the woman when she told me about it.

Ann