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Old 09-11-2020, 19:04   #31
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Max Cruise 42

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
But the point is not sailing downwind, it is when the autopilot blows up reaching and close reaching trying to keep course with the maximum lee or weather helm conditions being applied.

As you furl in the jib in heavier weather the jib's C.E. moves forward quite dramatically, and the main C.E. will also move a bit forward, so lee helm can result.

It seems to me one of the joys of a performance cat design is its ability to sail well in both very light conditions, but also heavy conditions, without the AP being overworked needlessly. Not talking storm conditions here, so a storm sail on a baby stay is not a great (sailing) solution. A heavy duty staysail is a much better solution, gives you lots more gears to balance a deeply reefed main.

Weíve just added a virtual inner forestay to our sail plan, which has a mast just in front of the daggerboards and a self tacking 95% jib. We carry a 65% staysail and 22% storm jib, the staysail furling around a self supporting luff and the storm jib around an anti-torque cable. They share the same top and bottom swivels.

The tack fitting is only 300mm behind the front beam and the halyard exit is 350mm below the hounds. But even that little distance makes a huge difference. Part of that is having more efficient head sails with much less drag, including soon a new jib.

There was some lee helm through most of the range with the old jib, and reefing the main and furling the jib made it worse. Now we swap to the staysail soon after we put in the first reef and the helm is neutral even to the second reef. Once we go to the third reef we also swap to the storm jib and helm balance is restored.
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Old 09-11-2020, 23:48   #32
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Max Cruise 42

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Thanks for that info. These questions have been discussed with Max Cruise, and instead of guessing or relying on simple math, they have hired North Sails to consult on rig/sails. They - both North and Max - seem confident that the boat will be balanced.... a huge thing for me after dealing with weather helm on our last boat.

Max has also designed an ICW friendly rig for us Americans that live on the East Coast and have to deal with bridge height restrictions. Besides the ability to pass through a lot of the Intercoastal Waterway, it does lower the vertical center of effort 37.5" - this has an appreciable effect on the safety of the boat. But for those benefits we do lose the self tacking jib and high aspect sail plan.

This past summer we were fortunate enough to be invited to sail on multiple Dazcats while locked down in the UK. Each of these adventure started on moorings miles up the heavy trafficked and winding river in the port of Plymouth. Some of my fondest memories of this experience - besides ocean sailing in the upper teens - was when we'd drop the mooring lines and short tack miles down river to the harbor. Since this was all made effortless by having a ST headsail, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up that ability for a shorter rig.

Max does have plans for carbon rotating 16m, 18m and spreaderless masts too, but those are way, way out of my budget. Luckily, we're still a year plus away from needing to decide rig choice.

Matt

Attachment 226653
Attachment 226654

Why do you need to loose the self tacking jib,
I wonder how the seawind 1260 manages to keep the self tacker even with the mast further forward. The 1370 also has a short mast option with the self tacker.

I guess it comes down to loosing some main area to balance it out? If its for 5% loss in sail area maybe its worth it? Im assuming right now you are keeping the same sail performance and that is whats preventing the self tacker.
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:23   #33
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Weíve just added a virtual inner forestay to our sail plan, which has a mast just in front of the daggerboards and a self tacking 95% jib. We carry a 65% staysail and 22% storm jib, the staysail furling around a self supporting luff and the storm jib around an anti-torque cable. They share the same top and bottom swivels.

The tack fitting is only 300mm behind the front beam and the halyard exit is 350mm below the hounds. But even that little distance makes a huge difference. Part of that is having more efficient head sails with much less drag, including soon a new jib.

There was some lee helm through most of the range with the old jib, and reefing the main and furling the jib made it worse. Now we swap to the staysail soon after we put in the first reef and the helm is neutral even to the second reef. Once we go to the third reef we also swap to the storm jib and helm balance is restored.
Excellent

Out of interest, what autopilot do you have and about how hard was it working to correct the lee helm with beam winds over 25 kts?

I'm thinking of getting the B&G H5000 with gust reaction by bearing away. Have you heard any reports on it?
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Old 10-11-2020, 13:57   #34
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Excellent



Out of interest, what autopilot do you have and about how hard was it working to correct the lee helm with beam winds over 25 kts?



I'm thinking of getting the B&G H5000 with gust reaction by bearing away. Have you heard any reports on it?

We have a Raymarine EV400 and the response level is set to Cruising mode. We have not seen it working hard on any point of sail based on the rudder angle indicator, though we put our boards half down on reaches in big seas to improve hulls tracking and have less rudder movement.

No experience with B&G autopilots, but have heard they have the most advanced sailing features.
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Old 10-11-2020, 17:14   #35
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Why do you need to loose the self tacking jib,
I wonder how the seawind 1260 manages to keep the self tacker even with the mast further forward. The 1370 also has a short mast option with the self tacker.

I guess it comes down to loosing some main area to balance it out? If its for 5% loss in sail area maybe its worth it? Im assuming right now you are keeping the same sail performance and that is whats preventing the self tacker.

Not ruling out an option three either. They absolutely can find a balance of ST headsail and lower mast height- and we will investigate that when we get closer to buying a rig - but for now, the current designs keep the performance equalish between rigs.

This weekend we went out on a 55' performance cat. We were loaded down, and there were pretty light winds, but I kept wishing for more sail area to get us moving. I don't want to fall into that trap.

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Old 10-11-2020, 23:55   #36
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Re: Max Cruise 42

Assuming the jib sheets are set up like the leopards with tracks on the roof, all leading to winches in the cockpit, then it might be not too bad.

Self tackers are a must on boats like the seawinds with winches far apart. Assuming you are short handed.
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Old 11-11-2020, 00:12   #37
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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This weekend we went out on a 55' performance cat. We were loaded down, and there were pretty light winds, but I kept wishing for more sail area to get us moving. I don't want to fall into that trap.

Matt
Yes! Sailing in the ICW is OK I guess, but......

You will undoubtedly spend more sailing time in light airs than even tradewind breezes, unless you intend to stay in the tradewind belt. Even here on the east coast of Australia, I think the average wind is around 8 knots.

The choice of screecher seems to be to either opt for a bigger fuller cut that is a monster for reaching but not as versatile upwind, or a slightly smaller flatter upwind cut that will drop the reaching speeds a few knots. Choices, choices.

Maybe a flat screecher and then a parasailor for offwind reaching and running?
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Old 11-11-2020, 00:32   #38
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Yes! Sailing in the ICW is OK I guess, but......

You will undoubtedly spend more sailing time in light airs than even tradewind breezes, unless you intend to stay in the tradewind belt. Even here on the east coast of Australia, I think the average wind is around 8 knots.

The choice of screecher seems to be to either opt for a bigger fuller cut that is a monster for reaching but not as versatile upwind, or a slightly smaller flatter upwind cut that will drop the reaching speeds a few knots. Choices, choices.

Maybe a flat screecher and then a parasailor for offwind reaching and running?
A big Code D/ fuller cut screacher makes a lot sense for a performance cat that can bring the apparent wind forward and gybe down wind. Seems every outremer owner has one now and have it up all the time.
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Old 11-11-2020, 00:35   #39
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Maybe a flat screecher and then a parasailor for offwind reaching and running?

Stop spending my money!

Depending on how the budget goes during the build, we may be a motor cat for the first year before we can afford a rig

A Parasailor is purely on the "Dream" list for now.... just like a spreaderless carbon mast.



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Old 11-11-2020, 00:46   #40
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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You will undoubtedly spend more sailing time in light airs than even tradewind breezes, unless you intend to stay in the tradewind belt. Even here on the east coast of Australia, I think the average wind is around 8 knots.

I may not have said it before, but light wind sailing is what I'm placing most of my focus on. Being forced to motor through most of Norway hit home again the importance of maximizing light air ability in a cruising boat. It's a major reason for the boat change.

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Old 11-11-2020, 04:29   #41
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Re: Max Cruise 42

Perhaps ask Nick O'Kelly how his Code 0 on their Leopard is doing.
When looking at their vids they seem pretty happy with it and their 46 foot boat is a beast, compared to what you plan.
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Old 11-11-2020, 05:18   #42
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Perhaps ask Nick O'Kelly how his Code 0 on their Leopard is doing.
When looking at their vids they seem pretty happy with it and their 46 foot boat is a beast, compared to what you plan.

Cherries with coconuts.


Leopard 46 is a 15 tonne boat with keels compared to a 7.5 tonne boat with boards, the choice of sails and light wind ability are light years apart.
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Old 11-11-2020, 13:25   #43
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Re: Max Cruise 42

The additional flying sails complement depends the type of boat: basically either lighter, performance cruising cat or heavier, charter cruising cat.

Typically a performance cruising cat has relatively small sail area and is underpowered upwind under 8 knots TWS and downwind 10 knots TWS (YMMV). Unless it mounts a huge rig, like a Gunboat. But that adds other problems, not the least much larger and more expensive sails and running rigging, so I wonít consider that.

So your typical performance cruising rig (regardless of whether it is self-tacking or overlapping) needs help light air upwind: a flat J0 screecher sheeted well inboard, basically a 150-200% genoa tacked from the bow pole. This sail can also be used reaching in heavier air. Iím not sure that for a heavier cat this kind of sail is useful as it still wonít generate enough power and apparent wind speed to increase the boatís upwind speed.

For light air reaching a typical 350% Code 0 or screecher is useful. It can only go up to 45 - 55 degrees AWA so no good upwind, but super for close to broad reaching and even enough body to be useful near DDW when flown off the windward bow. This sail is primarily for the heavier cat, as the lighter cat may be able to go straight from the J0 to a spinnaker (with a small hole reaching in light winds - how important is it to fill that hole?).

Finally, a large symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker to cover broad reaching and DDW in lighter and moderate winds. This would be a heavier cloth weight for the heavier cat and lighter cloth for the lighter cat, as the lighter cat can move to the Code 0 or J0 in moderate winds without dropping much boat speed (in a cruising context) and doesnít need the extra sail area in moderate winds.
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Old 12-04-2021, 03:11   #44
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Re: Max Cruise 42

Hi Matt,

Appreciate the thoughts and comments. Iím probably a couple of years behind. When you looked at Oram (retired) Schionning and what youíve gone with, was there a reason not to consider a Grainger?
Regards
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:40   #45
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Re: Max Cruise 42

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Hi Matt,

Appreciate the thoughts and comments. Iím probably a couple of years behind. When you looked at Oram (retired) Schionning and what youíve gone with, was there a reason not to consider a Grainger?
Regards
I absolutely love the look of the Raku. And I preferred some of the design details like the raised rear helm with better all-around visibility, the round hull bottoms, and more open cockpit/saloon possibility.

Cost of the "kit" was much higher than the others for a similar spec'd foam core flat panel kit from ATL. But the thing that pushed us furthest away was conversations I had with past builders of his boats. Each person I spoke to was less than enthused with the incomplete details of the plans, and the lack of after purchase help supplied to figure out this missing information.

We are far from professionals, so we were looking to build a boat with a bit of handholding by the designer to make sure we were doing things properly and safely. We got the warm and fuzzy feeling that Schionning, Oram, and Max Cruise would be there to answer questions we had along the way.


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