Max Cruise 42

[Matt Johnson]

The bows are a different piece that gets added towards the end of the build.

The benefit is that bulkhead #1 can be fiberglassed well on both sides along with the forebeam to create a strong and watertight area up front. This is typically a difficult to access area and often gets a less than perfect fiberglass job - like shoving a stick with fiberglass tape on it through a small hole and hoping that it stays.

With bulkhead #1 fully fiberglassed, the hulls are now watertight and the bow cone become just an additional extension that isn't really structural. There are 100mm flanges where the bow cone gets bonded to the hulls. You then fill the seam with a fairing compound and gelcoat to finish off the area. Once the gelcoat is polished, the seam should be invisible.

Matt

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

The bows are a different piece that gets added towards the end of the build.

The benefit is that bulkhead #1 can be fiberglassed well on both sides along with the forebeam to create a strong and watertight area up front. This is typically a difficult to access area and often gets a less than perfect fiberglass job - like shoving a stick with fiberglass tape on it through a small hole and hoping that it stays.

With bulkhead #1 fully fiberglassed, the hulls are now watertight and the bow cone become just an additional extension that isn't really structural. There are 100mm flanges where the bow cone gets bonded to the hulls. You then fill the seam with a fairing compound and gelcoat to finish off the area. Once the gelcoat is polished, the seam should be invisible.

Matt

Cunning, I guess that is how they get a 42 foot kit into a 40 foot container.

[Enza]

Any thought on the Yamaha Dtorque diesel outboards instead of 25 HP Yamaha 4 strokes on this build? Overkill as far as horsepower, 50 vs 25, and weight, 385 pounds vs 126. But slightly more amps, 25 vs 16. And of course diesel vs gas way safer. I get it that the Dtorque is probably 6 times more expensive but would also have 4 times the life span. Hmmm...... the more I'm writing the more the Yamaha gas outboard look good.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Enza

Any thought on the Yamaha Dtorque diesel outboards instead of 25 HP Yamaha 4 strokes on this build? Overkill as far as horsepower, 50 vs 25, and weight, 385 pounds vs 126. But slightly more amps, 25 vs 16. And of course diesel vs gas way safer. I get it that the Dtorque is probably 6 times more expensive but would also have 4 times the life span. Hmmm...... the more I'm writing the more the Yamaha gas outboard look good.

Weight is a huge consideration, so I don't think any diesel outboards would work for our application.

Concerns with the outboard are noise, cavitation, and slamming to the nacelle. Based on where the gas tanks are located - on the bridgedeck in front of the mast - I'm not worried too much about the fuel safety.

Matt

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Enza

Any thought on the Yamaha Dtorque diesel outboards instead of 25 HP Yamaha 4 strokes on this build? Overkill as far as horsepower, 50 vs 25, and weight, 385 pounds vs 126. But slightly more amps, 25 vs 16. And of course diesel vs gas way safer. I get it that the Dtorque is probably 6 times more expensive but would also have 4 times the life span. Hmmm...... the more I'm writing the more the Yamaha gas outboard look good.

I would love some diesel outboards but these sound like a nightmare. They are rebranded units from a German manufacturers called Neander. Yamaha stopped selling their own ones in 2008(not a good sign). At this rate the support for these motors will be questionable in the future at best. Imagine the look on the mechanic's face when you tell him you have a Neander diesel outboard. Diesel Tech is on the way out, at this point I would just go with the gas motors and switch over to electric when they come down in price. Or at least just go with the inboard.

I love diesel trucks, vans and generators but at this point they are one step away from the grave.

[Yihang]

For the extra weight you could do what this seawind 1190 owner did and get twin 70HP outboards, haha, total 140hp on a 6 ton cat....motoring at 14knts

https://www.facebook.com/SeawindCata...58042981504851

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Yihang

For the extra weight you could do what this seawind 1190 owner did and get twin 70HP outboards, haha, total 140hp on a 6 ton cat....motoring at 14knts

https://www.facebook.com/SeawindCata...58042981504851

Best of both worlds

Looks like fun. But alas, I think we'll stick with the 25hp Yamaha HT if we go outboards.

Matt

[smj]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Weight is a huge consideration, so I don't think any diesel outboards would work for our application.



Concerns with the outboard are noise, cavitation, and slamming to the nacelle. Based on where the gas tanks are located - on the bridgedeck in front of the mast - I'm not worried too much about the fuel safety.



Matt

Have you considered a pivoting nacelle/pod?

[Matt Johnson]

It would be ideal - the Seawind 1000 had a really nice setup - but you do need more clearance above to clear the motor head when raised. I'm not sure we have that clearance since this is under the cockpit seating.


Matt

[BigBeakie]

Just a couple of thoughts for you, Matt & Jessica. Are you planning for bluewater cruising? If so have you considered (A) having a cutter rig sail plan with a staysail? This works well for 3rd reef heavy wind sailing to maintain a balanced sail plan. You'd want some thought put into the staysail chainplate re-enforcements now.
And (B), adding adequate re-enforcements for attachment points for a Jordan Series drogue? They ( each one) need to handle about 3/4 of the cruising displacement, so much better to build them in at this stage of the build. We used carbon chainplates on our build for this purpose and faired them in nicely on the transom steps coaming so they're not fugly.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Just a couple of thoughts for you, Matt & Jessica. Are you planning for bluewater cruising? If so have you considered (A) having a cutter rig sail plan with a staysail? This works well for 3rd reef heavy wind sailing to maintain a balanced sail plan. You'd want some thought put into the staysail chainplate re-enforcements now.
And (B), adding adequate re-enforcements for attachment points for a Jordan Series drogue? They ( each one) need to handle about 3/4 of the cruising displacement, so much better to build them in at this stage of the build. We used carbon chainplates on our build for this purpose and faired them in nicely on the transom steps coaming so they're not fugly.

Our Jordan drogue was one of the few things we sent back to the US from our past boat. I'll need to add a few cones, but it was oversized to begin with and will fit the new boat well. Chainplates for this have already been figured out and will be incorporated into the build... nothing fancy besides stainless steel.

Matt

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Our Jordan drogue was one of the few things we sent back to the US from our past boat. I'll need to add a few cones, but it was oversized to begin with and will fit the new boat well. Chainplates for this have already been figured out and will be incorporated into the build... nothing fancy besides stainless steel.

Matt

Excellent, that's good to hear re the JSD preps

Re your sail balance, looking at the mast placement, it is further forward than I'd thought at first. It appears to be considerably forward of the leading edge of the daggerboards as well ( is that your CLR?), making it a mainsail driven boat more than a cutter would be, so there is not much room for an efficient staysail anyway.

A number of cats can develop alot of weather helm under heavier wind conditions if they are predominently mainsail driven and the jib gets rolled up in heavier conditions. A good multihull sailmaker ( who actually sails) with experience in offshore boats can advise you on this point. This is discussed and illustrated well on the owner blog of sv Puffin, an Outremer 4X here in Oz. ( see sailpuffin.com)

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Excellent, that's good to hear re the JSD preps

Re your sail balance, looking at the mast placement, it is further forward than I'd thought at first. It appears to be considerably forward of the leading edge of the daggerboards as well ( is that your CLR?), making it a mainsail driven boat more than a cutter would be, so there is not much room for an efficient staysail anyway.

A number of cats can develop alot of weather helm under heavier wind conditions if they are predominently mainsail driven and the jib gets rolled up in heavier conditions. A good multihull sailmaker ( who actually sails) with experience in offshore boats can advise you on this point. This is discussed and illustrated well on the owner blog of sv Puffin, an Outremer 4X here in Oz. ( see sailpuffin.com)

Thanks for that info. These questions have been discussed with Max Cruise, and instead of guessing or relying on simple math, they have hired North Sails to consult on rig/sails. They - both North and Max - seem confident that the boat will be balanced.... a huge thing for me after dealing with weather helm on our last boat.

Max has also designed an ICW friendly rig for us Americans that live on the East Coast and have to deal with bridge height restrictions. Besides the ability to pass through a lot of the Intercoastal Waterway, it does lower the vertical center of effort 37.5" - this has an appreciable effect on the safety of the boat. But for those benefits we do lose the self tacking jib and high aspect sail plan.

This past summer we were fortunate enough to be invited to sail on multiple Dazcats while locked down in the UK. Each of these adventure started on moorings miles up the heavy trafficked and winding river in the port of Plymouth. Some of my fondest memories of this experience - besides ocean sailing in the upper teens - was when we'd drop the mooring lines and short tack miles down river to the harbor. Since this was all made effortless by having a ST headsail, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up that ability for a shorter rig.

Max does have plans for carbon rotating 16m, 18m and spreaderless masts too, but those are way, way out of my budget. Luckily, we're still a year plus away from needing to decide rig choice.

Matt

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Re your sail balance, looking at the mast placement, it is further forward than I'd thought at first. It appears to be considerably forward of the leading edge of the daggerboards as well ( is that your CLR?), making it a mainsail driven boat more than a cutter would be, so there is not much room for an efficient staysail anyway.

A number of cats can develop alot of weather helm under heavier wind conditions if they are predominently mainsail driven and the jib gets rolled up in heavier conditions. A good multihull sailmaker ( who actually sails) with experience in offshore boats can advise you on this point. This is discussed and illustrated well on the owner blog of sv Puffin, an Outremer 4X here in Oz. ( see sailpuffin.com)

I agree with you comments on a staysail although the inner stay would be useful for a storm jib.

Your analysis is not wholly accurate for cats with boards. All points of sail off the wind the boards will be up and the CLR will be well aft at the rudders.

It can be an issue with mini keels especially if the rudders are small. This can result in a 180 degree round up if running under mainsail and the rudders cavitate.

[BigBeakie]

But the point is not sailing downwind, it is when the autopilot blows up reaching and close reaching trying to keep course with the maximum lee or weather helm conditions being applied.

As you furl in the jib in heavier weather the jib's C.E. moves forward quite dramatically, and the main C.E. will also move a bit forward, so lee helm can result.

It seems to me one of the joys of a performance cat design is its ability to sail well in both very light conditions, but also heavy conditions, without the AP being overworked needlessly. Not talking storm conditions here, so a storm sail on a baby stay is not a great (sailing) solution. A heavy duty staysail is a much better solution, gives you lots more gears to balance a deeply reefed main.