Lagoon bulkheads

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Awww, come on Rob! While I agree that designed flexing is common, this statement is pretty hard to stomach. I simply do not think that thousands of Lagoons have circumnavigated... that is patently ridiculous. Thousands of Lagoons have been built and sailed somewhere. A small number of them have sailed across oceans, and likely a smaller yet number of those have circumnavigated... I'd believe maybe ten or so... maybe!

Jim

I’m guessing maybe 10 per year…..

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Awww, come on Rob! While I agree that designed flexing is common, this statement is pretty hard to stomach. I simply do not think that thousands of Lagoons have circumnavigated... that is patently ridiculous. Thousands of Lagoons have been built and sailed somewhere. A small number of them have sailed across oceans, and likely a smaller yet number of those have circumnavigated... I'd believe maybe ten or so... maybe!

Jim

I personally know 4 people who circumnavigate in 4 different Lagoons who live in Annapolis alone. I find it hard to believe I know 40% of all Lagoon circumnavigators! You're right though I definitely exaggerated, maybe just hundreds. Thanks for keeping me honest. My point stands however, there aren't Lagoons sinking left and right from structural failure, or even commonly, or even uncommonly. I am not aware of it ever happening in fact, despite I think Lagoon making more cats than anyone else, nor does it happen with FPs or Leopards which I have personally seen flex quite a bit. This is a tempest in a teapot fueled by belligerent ignorance on behalf of a handful of folks (not you).

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I personally know 4 people who circumnavigate in 4 different Lagoons who live in Annapolis alone. I find it hard to believe I know 40% of all Lagoon circumnavigators! You're right though I definitely exaggerated, maybe just hundreds. Thanks for keeping me honest. My point stands however, there aren't Lagoons sinking left and right from structural failure, or even commonly, or even uncommonly. I am not aware of it ever happening in fact, despite I think Lagoon making more cats than anyone else, nor does it happen with FPs or Leopards which I have personally seen flex quite a bit. This is a tempest in a teapot fueled by belligerent ignorance on behalf of a handful of folks (not you).

It’s an incorrect argument to say that lagoon doesn’t have an issue because they build a lot of boats and some sail the world.

Some Lagoons are going through this damage under their own weight and loads. Let’s see how many are left standing in 10 years…

If you show me another brand that requires the same level of effort for a similarly aged vessel then we’d have another example of a poorly designed boat.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

.

By the way, my boat, and undoubtably yours, does not significantly move or flex even in very heavy seas. The engineering problem is much more difficult in a catamaran.

It's more difficult if you go away from tried and tested methods like drum bulkheads attached with generous fillets and glass taped and instead try and cut corners and costs by using snot from a tube.

I have built a couple of cats
Have worked on many others
Many of them being driven hard if not flogged several times a week and sailed hard when cruising as well and have survived decades of abuse , compared to the average lagoon cruiser, with zero bulkhead issues.

All had generous fillets and glass taped bulkheads.
None used snot from a tube.

[Fore and Aft]

I have personally surveyed at least five Lagoon cats that have sailed to Australia and none had bulkhead issues. I surveyed a 440F in Fiji that had been knocked around by various owners and still the bulkheads were well attached. Just because some clown buys a hurricane damaged Lagoon and starts carrying on like a pork chop doesn't mean every Lagoon is a death trap. I often wonder what would happen if I purchased a written of Kia car and then started bagging it's quality while restoring it on YouTube. I am sure I would be ridiculed and ignored fairly quickly.
Simi 60 I always thought it was a ballsy move by Lagoon to just cove their bulkheads in place. I would have thought just a layer of 450gm tape over the cove would have been good insurance. Taping is quick and clean using a Wombat.
Cheers

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

.
I have personally surveyed at least five Lagoon cats that have sailed to Australia and none had bulkhead issues. I surveyed a 440F in Fiji that had been knocked around by various owners and still the bulkheads were well attached

How would you be 100% sure without removing the veneer?
Genuinely interested.

I hate veneers or cloth hiding structural, I like to see stuff as it happens
Not as it tears apart.

Simi 60 I always thought it was a ballsy move by Lagoon to just cove their bulkheads in place

But are they?
If they were how do you explain the veneer all the way to the hull and floor connection?
A cove wouldn't allow that to happen

[Chotu]

Do we have any pictures of these bulkheads and how they are attached? The above posts about the veneer really got me wondering.

[Fore and Aft]

True Simi 60, I should have said visible coves. Certainly everywhere you can see the hull/bulkhead connection is a just a large green cove if I remember rightly. None of those cats I surveyed had any signs of bulkhead failure, crazed gelcoat, movement or cracking on the veneer. As much as I don't like Lagoons method of construction it seems to work. I am sure the builder of that big trawler of yours would have just laughed at the construction of a modern cat.
Years ago we owned a 25 foot yacht and I had to replace the galley bulkhead. As a trial I just coved it in place using a glue/filler mix. Five years later when we sold her that bulkhead was still solid as with no cracking.
Cheers

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Would not touch a Lagoon at this point.

I would love a Lagoon if anyone wants to give theirs away? 😝

[lestersails]

I am intrigued by a number of the overarching, broad generalizations/accusations about mass production boats. It strikes me that the patterns of use/abuse of mass production boats is completely different than the bespoke and high end boats. How can those who generalize ever hope to separate out the supposed poor quality of mass production boats from the endless abuse that charter boats are subjected to? Not confident the generalization is wrong, but I wonder.

[sailmontana]

Oh man, some of these reads are just SO entertaining. The rhetoric is endless.
Speaking for balls deep in a 2006 L440 refit I will tell you that upon pre-purchase inspection the P/S forward bulkheads were found to be detached at the "snot". The stern BH's were found to be acceptable by surveyor who was said to be "the best" so I trusted him. The boat creaks A LOT at anchor in cross swells and at sea. I've pulled the stairs on the port side and found yet more glue separation. Is this structural or annoying or both I'm not sure. Bow bulkheads where glassed in and Nanny Cay did an amazing job!
What I can tell you that during a recent "Oh-My-Goda" passage to SXM in good weather from STT I was swallowed by some 12 foot peaked waves directly on the bow that pushed me backwards (a whole nother story) and though unsettling she drove through without a shutter, well, maybe a little. At times I took water right up to the top of the bimini giving me a nice foot wash. She is a flybridge design of which I'm not much of a fan but it was a "good deal" so we went for it. So far our biggest financial expense has been the saildrives replacement. All motor and SD bolts P/S had to be cut out along with mount beds, mounts fabricated, beds/mounts reglassed ect.
While doing more research on this buckhead matter I found an article about nacelle stress cracks/fractures showing more definitive evidence to buckhead failure. If my bulkhead / snot issue was structural and failing I think after what I endured it would have showed these signs; it did not.
The confidence I have in my sailing ability and boat were put to the test during this passage (I don't recommend BTW) and while entertaining to read all the armchair comments is NOT helping this community.
My very first sailing educational charter was on a L410. It started a 15 year charter career to the VI's and many other USA waters. I scoured the classifieds and landed on a L440 with MANY hard miles in the southern caribbean as a charter maid. I am her new sugar daddy and have already enabled many more sailing addicts that will no doubt move on to bigger and better voyages.
I believe in extreme and ultimate personal responsibility for one's actions and words no matter the avatar. I "bought my tickets and knew what I was getting in to" now, will you say "let me crash"? Will you laugh and point at me as I am flowdering?
Lagoons are a portly comfortable stable breed of mostly charter layed-out catamaran built for a pretty specific market. The charter market, would you all agree? 99% would say an emphatic "YES!"
Buyer be-ware I say, of which I am. I knew what I bought and the $200K price tag was so far appropriate and maybe a "good deal" if that and boat actually go together. The YouTubers and the naysayers alike can at least agree on something, Lagoons are a mass production catamaran and yes, CAN sail oceans far and wide and will make it. Will they be first to finish, no, but will get there. Will they be worse for the ware, most likely.
ALLL boats have their issues, you do actually get what you pay for and for what I got for what I paid for in a Lagoon I got A LOT of boat! It needs A LOT of TLC and after a scammer of a charter manager I am now paying more to fix an unmanaged charter yacht, again, my fault!
The competition that illegal and cheap unsafe labor has put on any manufacturing is one of the many worldly problems and challenges that we all face. One can do a 5 minute Google search and find many issue with the repercussions of that with just concrete and bridges alone.
This rant will continue far past many sunsets on distant horizons. What I know is that my L440 has already delivered one hell of a fireside chat and everyone that I speak with is wide eyed with interest and maybe a bit jealous of my adventures.
With her "warts and all", I have a strong confidence in my L440. I am not naive on what she can handle, I am not rounding any cape or attempting any pole crossing. It's a F-ing Lagoon for G's sake! It's a sailing condo. Yes she creaks and pops when in a tough go. Will it fall apart and leave me jumping to my fate to the just inflated life raft? Maybe; but probably not. I know her limits and she pushes me to mine; and she can take WAY more than I am comfortable with. That I am sure of and that is really all that matters.
Let's be kind here, let's educate others so we can make our own decisions. Most importantly, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that all boats are built with the same ideals in mind.
I have many tools in the tool box and I know what each one can do and what it was designed for. If all you have is a hammer...
Go sailing...

[Sailing Hanse37]

Also as an engineer: these lagoons are underbuilt. Different models but same method of building predicts problems for all models… i will never buy one. I guess that it will become increasingly difficult to get an insurance on these cats

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by sailmontana

Oh man, some of these reads are just SO entertaining. The rhetoric is endless.
Speaking for balls deep in a 2006 L440 refit I will tell you that upon pre-purchase inspection the P/S forward bulkheads were found to be detached a
Go sailing...

I cut a bit of your message because too much blabla. As i understand your message: you own a Lagoon and therefore defend it is a good boat. Well, i agree with you. Lagoons are certainly fantastic for coastal cruising or for cruising in the caribbean. Having cruised there with our boat, yes the calm caribbean sea is certainly very pleasant wit a lagoon. But there ends the story… sadly… these boats are not built to withstand harsh ocean conditions. And 12 foot peaked waves are by any means quite normal on any ocean…

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

OK folks, before the hysteria sets in. Let me point out a few facts first regarding this video. We are talking about the Lagoon 410, A very very well designed boat that can take a sea, I know form first hand as I owned one. The video clearly shows movement in one of the panels, given the sea and they way the boats are designed this is not unusual. The owner is far from clear what has actually happened in regard to what has happened only stating that one of the bulkheads are broken. Me being me I am just curious as to why this was not shown, I mean if you can see it you can photograph it. From my experience and I can only comment on my experience the floor supports can become detached from the hull. This is not a big deal, is not structural and easily fixed. It may well be that a bulkhead has an issue but at this point in time we can only go by what we have been told which is very little. I await further details. For those already making links to the bulkhead issue with the L450 - get a life and just deal in known facts. Everything else is just speculation until the issue is identified by a proffesional.


Ozsailer

As I research this, I see 380’s 410’s, 450’s and 500’s. This is indeed widespread.
Very sorry for all in this situation or potentially so. This is not trivial. We are talking damage in the millions.

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Cameron65

Another YouTube channel Sailing Nahoa on a 2005 Lagoon 410 is reporting broken bulkhead issues as they sail the Indian Ocean. I thought this was a design fault related to the Lagoon 450. Makes me wonder if this is not an issue with all Lagoons built over the last twenty years that have been sailed extensively.

This is now going on with 380s, 410s,450s,and 500s. Not good.