Lagoon bulkheads

[Night_Sailor]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Would not touch a Lagoon at this point.

ditto, poor quality materials for longevity. I came to this conclusion a while back.

[JC Reefer]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A quick estimate of how much it would have cost lagoon to do it properly is as follows:


$600 USD in polyester resin
$200 USD in glass
$300 USD in fillers
$816 USD in labor

So about $2000 in cost to do it correctly.

Labor for $816? What a silly specific estimate. I want to know who you work with.

Not even if the boat was already striped of the cabinets and panels that need to be removed.

After to take apart the entire vessel and reconstruct it, the labor is probably a bit more then $816. Just a quick estimate of course.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by JC Reefer

Labor for $816? What a silly specific estimate. I want to know who you work with.

Not even if the boat was already striped of the cabinets and panels that need to be removed.

After to take apart the entire vessel and reconstruct it, the labor is probably a bit more then $816. Just a quick estimate of course.

Perhaps if you had read the post you would have seen that the estimate was for the additional costs to do the job right AT THE TIME OF BUILD, not to repair a damaged boat.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by JC Reefer

Labor for $816? What a silly specific estimate. I want to know who you work with.

Not even if the boat was already striped of the cabinets and panels that need to be removed.

After to take apart the entire vessel and reconstruct it, the labor is probably a bit more then $816. Just a quick estimate of course.

We were talking about doing this on the assembly line at the factory. I checked how much fiberglass laminators make in France. They make €13 per hour.

this is not a big job when the boat is in the factory. And I did not calculate a proper install where are you cove/fillet the entire perimeter of the bulkhead. I only calculated the bare minimum where are you cove and tab it in in sections. there is no way this company would do it the right way. LOL so let’s just look at basic tabbing.

But if you would like to double, triple or quadruple the labor cost, go right ahead. I don’t think any of that really matters.

The point is, this is a really really easy and cheap thing to do correctly.

[SV Coronado]

Originally Posted by John_char

It’ll be interesting to see how this pans out. I watched this channel for quite some time now. Since having kids they have evolved from a positive couple to drama after drama after drama.

I know having kids is a sobering experience, I have 4 (in my comfy house) however most people who watch these channels do so for the travel, ahem….the “scenery”, boat projects, long passage vids etc. Not drama after drama.

You hit the nail on the head - click bait! It apparently worked given the number of people on this forum that fell for it.

[robertmfranklin]

I always appreciate a different point of view, so paid attention respectfully to the remarks by OZSAILER ... until I got to the word "professional" the original post.

Hmmmm?

Any thoughts on evaluations by professionals? Maybe I should be on a different thread.

I have a different point of view when it comes to those with reverence for what I call, "the badge".

If you can't evaluate adequately what you need the badge to do, then maybe you shouldn't be out on the Indian Ocean to begin with.

[smacksman]

As I remember, the bulkhead problem showed up when they tensioned the rig and then a few days later the rig was slack again

[Manateeman]

“Snot in a tube. “ perfect 10.
We laughed so hard we had a hard time breathing. Let people buy whatever they want in a boat. It’s up to them to research the quality.
Aircraft flex. They are designed by engineers and stripped to the frame to examine if the design and construction stands up to the rigors of flying.
Like boats, early designs were often constructed out of wood. Now most are built like my boat...aluminum.
Will all aircraft and boats be constructed out of glass / carbon / epoxy some day?
I’m not sure. Non destructive testing for flex induced damage will need to progress further. Till then, I’m the only thing I’d like to hear creaking in the boat.
Happy trails.
Mark and his portable ballast crew.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by robertmfranklin

I always appreciate a different point of view, so paid attention respectfully to the remarks by OZSAILER ... until I got to the word "professional" the original post.

Hmmmm?

Any thoughts on evaluations by professionals? Maybe I should be on a different thread.

I have a different point of view when it comes to those with reverence for what I call, "the badge".

If you can't evaluate adequately what you need the badge to do, then maybe you shouldn't be out on the Indian Ocean to begin with.

hmmm, not to sure how to respond to your reply "Robertmfranklin" 1) In my opinion I was making legitimate comments based on very well found and factual observations. 2) I made my comment regarding professionals in what I believed was in context to Nohoas video. IE No offence to the skipper but He is clearly not a greatly experienced sailor or maintenance person in regard to boats. 3) I did not realize I needed a "badge" of crossing an ocean to know what I am talking about on certain issues. 4) Are you telling me that you would not require a professional shipwright, engineer, rigger to identify what the issue is (whish has not been clearly identified) but also what the frig caused the issue. I know I certainly wouldnt know and would seek expert assistance but hey what the frig would I know. Apparently I am not a proffesional and dont have a badge and you know what, you have no idea of my experience or capabilities. SGFY.


Ozsailer

[smj]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

hmmm, not to sure how to respond to your reply "Robertmfranklin" 1) In my opinion I was making legitimate comments based on very well found and factual observations. 2) I made my comment regarding professionals in what I believed was in context to Nohoas video. IE No offence to the skipper but He is clearly not a greatly experienced sailor or maintenance person in regard to boats. 3) I did not realize I needed a "badge" of crossing an ocean to know what I am talking about on certain issues. 4) Are you telling me that you would not require a professional shipwright, engineer, rigger to identify what the issue is (whish has not been clearly identified) but also what the frig caused the issue. I know I certainly wouldnt know and would seek expert assistance but hey what the frig would I know. Apparently I am not a proffesional and dont have a badge and you know what, you have no idea of my experience or capabilities. SGFY.





Ozsailer

The people on Nahoa have sailed her half way around the world over the last 5 years so I think they are fairly accomplished and should know their boat well? Considering their time aboard their cat and the miles sailed I’m guessing what they consider being a problem is something new and not an issue that’s been there all along? Just the fact their steps dropped an inch would give me reason to worry, but I’m sure they will run a video explaining the issue and whether it’s severe or not.

[Fore and Aft]

Dugong lover snot in tube could almost describe what your Dugongs produce with all that pizza you feed them.
I see there are some panels on the Airbus A380 that are a fiberglass aluminium composite (Glare). Who knows we may see boats built from this in the future.
Chotu is right, a bit of glass tabbing is really easy to do. A wet out machine and a bit of practice you can tab so quickly. I doubt it would even interfere with the production process. I suppose though it's all about the bottom line for these companies and a dollar saved ads up.
Cheers

[Greatest Lakes]

Most of us expect some things on a boat to flex, and some things not to flex. It does seem like the flex being observed in lagoons is undesirable to say the least. Anything on a boat that flexes enough to damage itself is pretty clearly moving beyond original design parameters. People are comparing aircraft to boats, aircraft flexibility is significantly greater than what we should expect from hulls, particularly cantilever wings. Everything still has a tolerance for flexibility, and rigidity. There are several boats that have hull flex that are still arguably great boats. Hunter 54 for instance was known as a flexy flier and was still well regarded by owners. Again, not quite the case with this lagoon issue. I would encourage lagoon to make efforts to remedy this undesirable movement.

[Chotu]

Seriously. A good boat is not flexible. It’s stiff. Retaining its shape is so important to the way it moves through the water, that flexibility will just ruin the performance of any boat.

you can almost view the hull as a giant wing. It is a sort of hydrofoil in a way. The minute it flexes out of whack, it stops working properly.

Good boats are stiff. Not flexible.

[Snore]

While I am NOT an engineer, I have a fair amount of relevant experience.

There are two issues- twisting of the hulls and bulkhead separation. It is assumed the prior causes the latter. I will add a third operator error.

bulkhead separation
I have moved a fair number of cats, as part of my pre-contract due diligence I request a copy of the survey. It is almost common to see failure at the wire to turnbuckle transition. After many miles of pondering, it comes down to either the SS fitting is under-sized for the load, or the load exceeds the designed limits.

Bolding assuming that the engineers who sec'd the fittings are competent and would not select and under-sized fitting, this leads us to loads. How could an operator over-load the rig? Failure to reef as required in the owner's manual. I truly believe this is the cause of that failure since I have had a clew separate, and seen 3-year-old sail that look blown out.

operator error
It would be curious to see how many bulkhead failures happen on charter boats or on boats owned by less than "careful' sailors vs. failures on boats operated correctly.

My entire argument is based on the fact that the bulkheads I have heard fail are along the load lines for the shrouds.

twisting of the hulls

IMHO cats MUST twist, or they will fail. A 45' Lagoon weighs about 35,000 lbs- add fuel, provisions, etc, etc. Lets SWAG 40% in each hull and 20% on the bridge deck. So when the in a quartering sea and the hulls are on different waves, or different parts of the same wave there is 14,000 lbs twisting one way, 14,000 lbs twisting another and 7,000 pounds in the middle getting abused. Now add to that the horizontal forces placed either pulling the bows apart, or pushing them together. The hulls have to give a little. Anyone who thinks a boat should never flex should look at the videos of tankers in a seaway.

So given the fact that cats MUST twist, the question is why are the bulkheads popping on SOME boats and not others?

I go full circle back to operator error. Are they reefing as required or are they the 'wonderful captains' who know better than the design engineers?

[Sand crab]

Snore, the 4th part of the equation is inadequate engineering and/or construction methods. Are the bulkheads properly sized and glassed in? We know the L450 had neither.