Lagoon 39 owners , anyone outhere?

[chakil]

For example in Turkey,Croatia,Greece you can buy a 100sqm house for 90.000€ in a good location and if you can catch a bargain easily for 80.000€ . And the bargain boats are usually in these countries. So tell me who is going to pay 3 house price for a boat and spend another 20.000€ per year and sell the boat for a half price in 5 years. Maybe you plan to liveaboard and a bit crazy which we are talking about a small market , check the number of cats sold in one year ,only 3 or 4 lagoon 39 is sold in the last quarter. And now is the buyers market , keep on dreaming to sell it for 300K euro and may be one day you will sell it in 5 years.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by chakil

For example in Turkey,Croatia,Greece you can buy a 100sqm house for 90.000€ in a good location and if you can catch a bargain easily for 80.000€ . And the bargain boats are usually in these countries. So tell me who is going to pay 3 house price for a boat and spend another 20.000€ per year and sell the boat for a half price in 5 years. Maybe you plan to liveaboard and a bit crazy which we are talking about a small market , check the number of cats sold in one year ,only 3 or 4 lagoon 39 is sold in the last quarter. And now is the buyers market , keep on dreaming to sell it for 300K euro and may be one day you will sell it in 5 years.

The owners of those live not in Croatia and the houses where they come from cost from a half million upwards. A cheap country as marina location says nothing about the flag the vessel is registered to nor about the financial situation of the owners.

It's an international market and unlike a house, a vessel can go averywhere. 300k are very realistic price for a Lagoon 400 owners version in good shape and fully equipped. Even for the much smaller and cheaper 39 owners version a price of 250k VAT payd is very realistic.

You can make a whish, but wil rarely find one with no hidden issues at your dream price of 200k. You can wait and hope so, but in the meantime someone with the right bank account will buy it ...

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by chakil

Its not a bargain , it is what it should be.
Look at the catamarans they are on sale for ages , they can not sell a 7 year old catamaran for 300.000€. It is a small market so the brokers trying to be the market maker with 2 websites and telling buyers dream numbers to keep on waiting. For exampe there is a Lagoon 2011 400 loaded asking 220.000€ and ready to sell for 200K euro but his sale price is 295.000 euro. Everybody just act the same way but the real sellers and buyers know the real market.

If the asking price is 220k, than buy it a 220k. If sale price of the seller is 295k, than this is the asking price and not 220k. So dream on.

[CatNewBee]

Btw, I saw also the 220k offers for new Cats, they mean a 50% share.

[chakil]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

If the asking price is 220k, than buy it a 220k. If sale price of the seller is 295k, than this is the asking price and not 220k. So dream on.

Not a dream buddy..
I can send you the link and if we you like it can buy it for 210K today.
If you are a boat owner you are right to defend these silly unreal numbers the reality is you can never sell a Lagoon 39 for 300K and a 400 for 250K .
Thats is what it is worth on paper but noone gives that much for a 5 year boat , at least anyone who can make calculation.

[Piscis]

There are a bunch of 39´s and 400´s right now on YW. Ranging from around 210k € to well over 300K. Some owners versions, some 4 cabin versions. Those priced well above 250K are sitting there since many many months, some of them well over a year. There is a 39 pristine owners version for 290k. AFAIK i saw that boat there the first time a year ago...
Compared to the Lagoons, there are now dropping a few Leopards 39 Modell 2014 on YW for very competitive asking prices, some of them around 200k €. even some oweners versions for well below 250k.
Generally it looks like the prices on US based boats are on the top of that range. Mediteranean more cheap.

Just from what i observe, it seems to shift slightly away from the "i can ask whatever i want and some dude will pay me", to a market that prices the boats more reasonable. Maybe just my guts, maybe wishfull thinking.

But i would never (want to) pay new boat price for a 3 year old cat...

John

[chakil]

Originally Posted by Piscis

There are a bunch of 39´s and 400´s right now on YW. Ranging from around 210k € to well over 300K. Some owners versions, some 4 cabin versions. Those priced well above 250K are sitting there since many many months, some of them well over a year. There is a 39 pristine owners version for 290k. AFAIK i saw that boat there the first time a year ago...
Compared to the Lagoons, there are now dropping a few Leopards 39 Modell 2014 on YW for very competitive asking prices, some of them around 200k €. even some oweners versions for well below 250k.
Generally it looks like the prices on US based boats are on the top of that range. Mediteranean more cheap.

Just from what i observe, it seems to shift slightly away from the "i can ask whatever i want and some dude will pay me", to a market that prices the boats more reasonable. Maybe just my guts, maybe wishfull thinking.

But i would never (want to) pay new boat price for a 3 year old cat...

John

I totally agree with you ..The boats on yw and ym are sitting there for over one year. Last year there was a lagoon 400 owners version in Croatia sold for 220K euro and on sale afterwards for 275.000 euro ..It is just a silly game brokers playing. My friend bought 2016 Lagoon 39 loaded in 2016 for 250K euro and now selling it for 250K euro.. They all act the same way.
We all know how to calculate the value , %50 depreciation in 5 years so brand new 39 or 40 ranges between 270K euro + 50K options=320K euro -%50 at the end of 5 years 160K euros but I offer 200K euro , I offer way more than its worth

[CatNewBee]

Tell me when you bought one.

[Barra]

Cats generally have had a good run the last few years ( hurricanes demographics exchange rates etc) but chalki is right imho the market is reaching a turning point when it comes to the lack of depreciation in 3 to 5 year old cats.

Just look at how long they are sitting in market - It's beginning to blow out now.

As an ex owner I'm not sure why current sellers would want to pretend there is little depreciation on a 3 year old boat - you cant have your cake and eat it too. With the exception of the past few years 10% on average has always been the case and we are returning to that.

Don't forget the role of the broker in all this too as transaction costs are very high vs pretty much any other asset and this affects the asking price significantly in a sellers market but less so the actual sales price in a more balanced market which is what we are returning to.

Still been fun to watch the good ol buyer in market vs current owner debates!

My 10c.

[chakil]

Keep on dreaming CatNewbee because everybody is waiting to buy a catamaran because all the economies are going better each day. Europe is in great condition where they can not stop QE and keep the neg interest rates , US is doing great where they may go for another 25bps rate cut next month,worst ISM manf numbers in the last 10 years, China is doing great where they are almost below %6 growth rate , gold appreciates %20 percent in 3 months .. You may only read Alice in Wonderland in your 300K euro Lagoon but when you realise that there is no such a buyer's market you will understand what I mean and ask me to buy your boat for 200K which I will think about.

[Sand crab]

Wiley Sharpe who is a member here just posted the 3rd quarter report from soldboats.com, The link is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7Ax8XnnFs

You have to go to YouTube to see the link to the data. Click on the show more tab under the vid.



You guys can look at the data and draw your own conclusions. Earlier reports are there also. The last column "sales cycle" is the time it took to sell in months.

[chakil]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Wiley Sharpe who is a member here just posted the 3rd quarter report from soldboats.com, The link is here:

You have to go to YouTube to see the link to the data. Click on the show more tab under the vid.



You guys can look at the data and draw your own conclusions. Earlier reports are there also. The last column "sales cycle" is the time it took to sell in months.

I always follow him but the thing is not all the sold boats are included in this list but at least we can have an idea. Anf if those number are correct for a quarter its a buyers market for sure , compare the number of boats on sale and sold. Only %10 is sold in a quarter so the sellers can keep asking for that dreamy prices and of course a few people will buy them but the real question is who is going to buy the other %90 of the boats. They will sit on their docks and get ready for another charter season with the realities of economy , Thomas Cook bankruptcy , falling euro agains usd , brexit , trade wars.. Middle class will not go for charters next year as many.. We will see what the future brings.

[Piscis]

Kudos to Mr. Sharpe. I always appreciate him taking his time and informing the sailing community about those interesting sales facts.

What i get from those numbers is the average $$ percentage of sales below asking prices. As this is often discussed on many www platforms. That might give us potential buyers an approximation of real world prices at the moment.

Average 8% means to me the ugly negleted ducks go for 15-20% below asking price, while the shining and well cared for owners versions, never chartered might sell close to asking price.

My opinion: If a seller is asking well above that real value of the boat, it just will not get sold. e.g. the 290K Lagoon 39 i mentioned above. At least it takes a while to sell it, eating up the sellers resources because of marina fees, maintanance and repairs...

[Piscis]

Mmhhh... or maybe i am wrong and the highly overpriced owners version have the most potential for a 10-20% discount from asking price, while the ugly, negleted ducks are already priced reasonable and there is not much space for price drop... who knows... LOL

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by chakil

Keep on dreaming CatNewbee because everybody is waiting to buy a catamaran because all the economies are going better each day. Europe is in great condition where they can not stop QE and keep the neg interest rates , US is doing great where they may go for another 25bps rate cut next month,worst ISM manf numbers in the last 10 years, China is doing great where they are almost below %6 growth rate , gold appreciates %20 percent in 3 months .. You may only read Alice in Wonderland in your 300K euro Lagoon but when you realise that there is no such a buyer's market you will understand what I mean and ask me to buy your boat for 200K which I will think about.

No way... Dream on.
I am very happy with my boat and do not intent to sell her any soon, and definitely not for 200k.