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Old 25-03-2020, 09:09   #61
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

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Originally Posted by canadian cat View Post
I took the numbers directly from Bob Orams site, but I am interested in other peoples experience regarding cost for custom builds. The designers/builders might just have a biased interest in low balling the numbers a bit. I even costed out material from Composites one in Arizona.

Just adding to the conversation. It seems to me that this is on topic for this tread?

What is with the grumpy response. Too much rain up in Vancouver.
I agree--it WAS a bit grumpy! But I would like to add to the thought about getting a hull and then finishing it. The basic hull is the EASY part! The time-consuming and expensive part is finishing it. Sorry if this sounds grumpy again, but I would like to save this person a lot of time and money, money, money. When we built our boat (before all of the modifications and extensions), my husband, who was an engineer but new to boatbuilding, actually thought we would launch in 6 months! 2 1/2 years later, we launched the basic Gypsy 28. Most important: the hull is the cheapest part of the process! Get a good, surveyed, used catamaran!
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Old 25-03-2020, 10:23   #62
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

We built our catamaran too. And it took longer than we planned too. But I wouldn't discourage someone else from doing the same thing. I don't know his/her situation, and wouldn't assume to "know what's best for him/her".

Our boat would have cost easily double what we spent, had we bought new. Buying used is great, but there are more compromises involved.

I doubt you'd have found (lightwave99) your boat on the used market, to suite your specific needs. We certainly didn't find anything that matched our needs/wants.

Just because it took us (you and I) longer than we thought, doesn't mean he's/she's not smarter, or more efficient than we are/were.

I know of a fellow who built a 45 foot catamaran in less than two years. (Jigsaw) It was a kit, but imagine how fast he'd have been if he'd have bought a hull and deck?

If you, or anyone, wants to build your own boat. Do your research, and go to it. It'll likely take longer, and cost more than you think. But you might be better at costing and timing than I am. I was better than most said I'd be, in costing.

Good luck.
Paul.
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Old 25-03-2020, 13:20   #63
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

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We built our catamaran too. And it took longer than we planned too. But I wouldn't discourage someone else from doing the same thing. I don't know his/her situation, and wouldn't assume to "know what's best for him/her".

Our boat would have cost easily double what we spent, had we bought new. Buying used is great, but there are more compromises involved.

I doubt you'd have found (lightwave99) your boat on the used market, to suite your specific needs. We certainly didn't find anything that matched our needs/wants.

Just because it took us (you and I) longer than we thought, doesn't mean he's/she's not smarter, or more efficient than we are/were.

I know of a fellow who built a 45 foot catamaran in less than two years. (Jigsaw) It was a kit, but imagine how fast he'd have been if he'd have bought a hull and deck?

If you, or anyone, wants to build your own boat. Do your research, and go to it. It'll likely take longer, and cost more than you think. But you might be better at costing and timing than I am. I was better than most said I'd be, in costing.

Good luck.
Paul.
True. Good points! Go for it! YAY!
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Old 25-03-2020, 17:33   #64
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

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Originally Posted by GRIT View Post
I know of a fellow who built a 45 foot catamaran in less than two years. (Jigsaw) It was a kit, but imagine how fast he'd have been if he'd have bought a hull and deck?

If you, or anyone, wants to build your own boat. Do your research, and go to it. It'll likely take longer, and cost more than you think. But you might be better at costing and timing than I am. I was better than most said I'd be, in costing.

Good luck.
Paul.
I've been on Jigsaw and spoken to the owner about the build process. It's an Oram 48c. I've also sailed on 44c's boat and spent the weekend on her. Another very nice boat.

I've also had a good chat to Bob Oram about the build process and a few other things. I offered to Steve to get it done because I feel confident I can get it done for him on the basis that I would hire a boat builder and also provide cheap labour to the builder - including my own. I'm a project manager by profession and this would represent one of the smaller and least complex projects I've delivered. It would work because I want one as well and I might have another person who wants one and could spread fixed costs across each project and also because the aussie dollar is through the floor. If one of those two would drop I could get it arranged and get all of the boats built.

My offer still stands to Steve and to anyone else who may be interested in having one of these boats built. If you are interested, check out the latest MJ Sailing youtube video where they discuss the build process. Once this coronavirus thing starts to abate there's going to be skilled staff looking for work and it's likely I could ramp up quickly.
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Old 25-03-2020, 18:14   #65
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

If someone asked me which design I'd suggest; to build a functional, fast cat. The Orams would be in the top two, tied with Schionning. I built a fwd cockpit, and Oram has that as an option. And judging by 44C's videos, they sail pretty darn fast, with a mainsail only 60m2 (I think it's actually smaller than that). The smaller the sails, the more affordable the gear.

Oram and Schionning are two different types of fast cats, but if you don't like one, you're likely to be happy with the other.

Out of the Bag was on our side of the planet for a while, and really showed his stuff. A buddy of mine with a Schionning, waterline 1480 said OOTB was super fast. And he should know!

A kit boat, or finished hulls and deck, in my opinion, is the smartest way to go. We spent a lot of time building the hulls and decks, probably 4 times longer than a kit would take. Also, starting with a hull and deck, you don't need a big garage. If you buy a closed (windows and doors) hulls/deck, you're way ahead of the game. Our garage cost half what the hulls and deck cost, and it was only big enough to cover the bridgedeck. The hulls stuck out the ends of the garage!

I know there are other types of shelters, but we're in PEI, and heat is a necessity. A tarp cover won't cut it here.

It's not the cheapest way to go sailing, but you get what's important to you, in lieu of what sells to the masses.

Cheers.
Paul.
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Old 25-03-2020, 18:45   #66
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIT View Post
If someone asked me which design I'd suggest; to build a functional, fast cat. The Orams would be in the top two, tied with Schionning. I built a fwd cockpit, and Oram has that as an option. And judging by 44C's videos, they sail pretty darn fast, with a mainsail only 60m2 (I think it's actually smaller than that). The smaller the sails, the more affordable the gear.

Oram and Schionning are two different types of fast cats, but if you don't like one, you're likely to be happy with the other.

Out of the Bag was on our side of the planet for a while, and really showed his stuff. A buddy of mine with a Schionning, waterline 1480 said OOTB was super fast. And he should know!

A kit boat, or finished hulls and deck, in my opinion, is the smartest way to go. We spent a lot of time building the hulls and decks, probably 4 times longer than a kit would take. Also, starting with a hull and deck, you don't need a big garage. If you buy a closed (windows and doors) hulls/deck, you're way ahead of the game. Our garage cost half what the hulls and deck cost, and it was only big enough to cover the bridgedeck. The hulls stuck out the ends of the garage!

I know there are other types of shelters, but we're in PEI, and heat is a necessity. A tarp cover won't cut it here.

It's not the cheapest way to go sailing, but you get what's important to you, in lieu of what sells to the masses.

Cheers.
Paul.

What design is yours, Paul?


The Orams and Schionnings are great boats. I like both. I'd also put Tony Grainger's boats in there.



The owner of Jigsaw is a retired boat builder. He offered to help my builds on a consulting basis but won't actually do a build. I know someone else who has built one who would help build again, too.



If you're more Outremer than FP and don't want to pay production prices then one of these kits is definitely the way to go.


Out of the bag has a great reputation for being a fast boat and well sailed. 44c gets his boat moving very nicely, too. It's easily sailed as well.
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Old 26-03-2020, 05:24   #67
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

Our boat is a Custom Kurt Hughes Design.

No kits, just sheets of foam, and rolls of glass, and lots of sandpaper.

I'm going to explain a little why we built our own boat, as you'll see, some of our chosen options would be expensive to retrofit to a new production boat, and ill suited to most used boats. I think most folks who build their own boats do mods that suit their tastes.

It was originally Kurt's KH45 (13.5m) design. We had him stretch the hulls to 15m, and shorten the Bridgedeck by nearly 2m. We had him design an integral Carbon fiber forward beam, and move the engines 2m forward from original, to centralize the weight more. We also moved the rudders aft, and had him make them kick-up style. The steering is all aluminum tube, and stainless shaft, push/pull. No cables or hydraulics.

The forward cockpit is our own addition, which Kurt doesn't favour, but accepted. I have balance issues, and keeping off the decks, while underway, is a necessity for me.

We have carbon fiber davits with, hidden, electric captive line winches to pull the dinghy up. And a utility/equipment room, and workshop in each stern.

The bottom has more than double the glass than designed, as we'd like to do the NW passage, it added about 300kg, but we wanted tough, so why not?

We built the boat using resin infusion, corecell foam, and MAS epoxies. It was post cured for 30 hours at 60C. That played havoc on my building.

The furniture is all honeycomb core, with 600gsm biax on each side. The fuel tanks are integral, using corecell and glass. 200l in day tanks, 550 in "offshore" tanks. Very helpful for spending the winter aboard, to run the heat.

The steering is inside, and last week, at -10C, it was a pleasure coming down the coast.

Two DWL options were offered, 8 tonne, and 10 tonne. We chose the 8 tonne waterline, which we'll soon change to his 10 tonne waterline. You never really know until you launch.

The sail area has also been increased substantially. The mainsail is 80m2, while the jib will be about 30-33m2. There will also be a screecher at about 50m2. There's a heavy weather jib at 19m2, set on an inner forestay.

All sail, and daggerboard, controls are electric, and the mainsheet, and track car are controlled with a single joystick at the helm, via a Harken reversing winch, and an Antal electric line driver.

We have 1100w of solar, and 720 Ah of lithium, to run the show.

Our boat modifications aren't for everyone, but we built our "dream" boat. She had a mass of 7500kg at launch, still loaded with tools, vacuum pumps, and parts for finishing, as well as a couple hundred litres of diesel. I expect we'll tip 8 tonne when the mast and deck gear is installed.

Now that's more information than you asked for, but, for anyone thinking of building their own boat, the possibilities may help them decide if it's worth the aggravation.

We named our boat GRIT, because that's what it takes to built such a thing. If you haven't got grit, or are timid about learning new skills, and problem solving, you probably shouldn't bother thinking about building a boat, especially if it's not in kit form. I'm guessing we'd have saved 35% in time, or more, on the total build, if we'd have bought a kit; and 50% or more, if we'd have bought a hull/deck.

If you have a life partner, and they aren't as committed as you are to build a boat, you'd better think twice.

But if you're not rich, and want a boat with "special" features, not generally found elsewhere. Are willing to commit a lot of time, and money. There is a lot of satisfaction in having your "dream" boat, the way you want it.

When I'm King, I'll have someone else build a dream boat for me. Until then, I'll have to do it myself, with the help of friends and family.

Crikey, I hadn't intended to write a book. I'll stop now.

Cheers all.
Paul.
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Old 26-03-2020, 05:58   #68
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

Thanks, Paul, for sharing all that detail. I'd love to see some pics of your boat. It sounds like a very interesting boat as we share a lot of design ideas. Unfortunately I don't have the money to spend that you have so things like captive winches will be replaced by simpler more manual systems but essentially I think you've got a boat I'd love.

I'm especially keen to see how the forward cockpit is set up and the rigging around it.

I appreciate you taking the time to write that response.
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Old 26-03-2020, 05:59   #69
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

I've mostly built the same boat as Grit with a different outcome due to developing a severe epoxy allergy because of the build. All the same materials. Same process building the hull. Same design.

However, some of my design changes varied as compared to his.

Because of the epoxy allergy, the last part is taking me twice as long. I used to be neck and neck with Grit. He's pulled ahead quite a bit now. I'm struggling, as can be read on this forum, with the final fit out.

I can't be anywhere near uncured epoxy or even dust from cured epoxy without developing an anaphylactic allergic reaction.

So, I have to use alternate materials for the interior. It's been quite a struggle and quite a lot of lost money trying things that don't work. I've done my windows no less than 6 times now. Still not sure if they'll hold. Don't use polycarbonate despite all the better advantages. Accept the weight penalty and use glass. Thermal expansion is awful.

You'll never be able to get a similar boat production without spending $1mil however, so that's the advantage to building.

I have the same hull described by Grit above. These are some of the best boats available on the water, in my opinion. Currently trying to manifest, produce, borrow or print out some grit myself to keep going. It's a monster of an undertaking. Well, off to work on it right now...

But be weary of your health, your relationship and your finances when taking on a decade long project. A sputtering in any of the 3 will spell trouble and a need to find more grit than you thought you needed.
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Old 26-03-2020, 06:03   #70
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

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I've mostly built the same boat as Grit with a different outcome due to developing a severe epoxy allergy because of the build. All the same materials. Same process building the hull. Same design.

However, some of my design changes varied as compared to his.

Because of the epoxy allergy, the last part is taking me twice as long. I used to be neck and neck with Grit. He's pulled ahead quite a bit now. I'm struggling, as can be read on this forum, with the final fit out.

I can't be anywhere near uncured epoxy or even epoxy dust without developing an anaphylactic allergic reaction.

So, I have to use alternate materials for the interior. It's been quite a struggle and quite a lot of lost money trying things that don't work. I've done my windows no less than 6 times now. Still not sure if they'll hold. Don't use polycarbonate despite all the better advantages. Accept the weight penalty and use glass. Thermal expansion is awful.

You'll never be able to get a similar boat production without spending $1mil however, so that's the advantage to building.

I have the same hull described by Grit above. These are some of the best boats available on the water, in my opinion. Currently trying to manifest, produce, borrow or print out some grit myself to keep going. It's a monster of an undertaking. Well, off to work on it right now...

We've pretty much posted at the same time.



We've spoken offline and I wish I had the ability to help you out. I certainly empathise with your situation; it's a lot invested to end up where you are with health issues with finishing.



I hope it works out for you.



I'm available for international hire
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Old 26-03-2020, 06:32   #71
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

TP12.

We're just receiving all our deck gear, now, and the mast is in production at Selden. We hope to receive the mast near the end of April, so photos of the deck gear will have to wait a while. The davits have been working since last year, and they're lovely.

Here's a quick pic of us going through thin surface ice in Halifax on Friday, that line hanging was picked up by the anchor, from the night before. There was no ice there the night before, but at -10, a thin surface ice formed.



This is us yesterday, in Lunenburg. No ice, and +3 degrees, mid-day. The radar is on a temporary mount, until we get the mast.



Davits



And this is launch day.

https://youtu.be/OK7LzMabYR0

I don't know how to make it show on the post.
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Old 26-03-2020, 06:44   #72
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

The video is great and I can get a bit of a look at the forward cockpit in it. I'd love to see some more pics once the mast is stepped and the rigging is run. She looks a great boat, a credit to you.


I'm keen on the forward cockpit as I can't think of a safer place to sail the boat from single handed, especially in a seaway. With the remote technologies we have available I don't see why you can't dock the boat from anywhere on the boat. At least, that's my thinking and I'm happy to be proven wrong.


Nice work. You must be super excited right now. The boat being launched. I'll have a beer for you.


Cheers,


Tony
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Old 26-03-2020, 06:50   #73
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

Chotu and I know each other, and speak often on e-mail. His project is an example of one that has suffered an unfortunate confluence of negative events.

I won't list them here, but certainly his allergies, and covid19 hitting centre stage, are two amongst others. If it wasn't for his grit, and focus, his project would have died long ago. He's had to overcome more than most, and my hat's off to him.

Chotu. Well done on your perseverance, you're a prime example of "can do" spirit. Keep up the good fight.

As an aside; Chotu has a very nice 50 foot monohull "escape vehicle" for sale, for any of you who want to "self isolate" in beautiful surroundings.

Cheers all.
Paul.
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Old 26-03-2020, 07:00   #74
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

There's a really sweet used 46' custom cat for sale for $350K in Fort Lauderdale. Forward cockpit, low hours, high end fittings, air con, generator, etc. It was built by a boat builder so there is experience there. Does have keels though if that's a deal breaker. It looks like you just need beer and you can sail away.
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Old 26-03-2020, 07:18   #75
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Re: Custom Catamaran Cost & Builders

TP12.

Thanks for the compliments. I'll take photos when I can.


My apologies to the OP if our posts have pushed this thread off it's intended course.

Cheers.
Paul.
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