Code "0" Gennaker

[johnhcole]

Just purchased a Leopard 39... It did not come with the extended bowsprit to add a Code 0 gennaker... Any advice on whether it is worth getting the extension and adding a gennaker or should one just get a spinnaker? Any experience or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks john

[Sailingcouple13]

Depends on your sailing needs. We have a spinaker and a code 0 furler on a 6ft bowsprit. The spinaker is faster 100+ degrees off the wind our code 0 is mylar scrim cut flat. Great to weather up to 50 degrees under 10knots as wind builds 55 degrees. The spinaker does not go up as often when just the two of us, the code 0 is out at all times if wind is under 18 knots apparent. So for us on the west coast of Florida with light wind the code 0 was a major benifit over the spinaker for up wind performance. Code 0 will cost more than twice than spinaker due to sprit and furler the first time around.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[UNCIVILIZED]

Pull out your Polars, & put them up against the typical winds where you'll be sailing. Then see which sail best fills the hole in your inventory. And for clarity, when I say hole, I mean the range (bracket) of wind angles & speeds where you are most lacking for efficient sails.
Also, this chart from North Sails may help a bit in choosing what'll fit you best North Sails: Downwind Sail Performance Guide

[monte]

We had a lagoon 380 with a gennaker on the bowsprit. It was good in up to up to 20K at around 80-150 degrees AWA, maybe added a knot or so to main and jib speeds. For our L400 we decided to skip it and just went with a parasailor which is good in 10-30K at angles of 90-180 degrees. It's simpler, easy to use and has a much better wind range. Ok we've had it up in 38K but I wouldn't really recommend that.the parasailor is expensive but maybe not a huge difference after you add the bowsprit install. I'm thinking of removing our sprit.

[django37]

Originally Posted by johnhcole

Just purchased a Leopard 39... It did not come with the extended bowsprit to add a Code 0 gennaker... Any advice on whether it is worth getting the extension and adding a gennaker or should one just get a spinnaker? Any experience or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks john

It really depends on your sailing ambitions. Tell us more about them! I have a gennaker, a small spinnaker and a large asym. spi. The latter set on a 22' spinnaker pole make my Lagoon faster downwind (in light Wind) than many racing trimarans -

[colemj]

Where will you be sailing? We have a Code 0 type on a furler on our boat. In the past 5 years of being in the Caribbean, we have used it twice. We spend months at a time with a reef in the sail here.

Other boats we talk to have a similar experience with these here.

Mark

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by johnhcole

Any advice on whether it is worth getting the extension and adding a gennaker or should one just get a spinnaker?

I think it depends on what kind of spinnaker you're considering? Sym or asym? If you want an asym spi you'll probably want the sprit anyway.

A reacher/screacher/gennaker/"code0" covers much of the range of an asym spi and little of the range of a sym spi. There are significant overlaps, but an asym spi + gennaker is much more redundant than a sym spi + gennaker.

As a data point, my boat had a sym spi when I bought it and I added a sprit to add a reacher (which we call a code 0 but probably technically isn't).

If I had inherited an asym spi instead, I probably would not have added the reacher (but would have already had a sprit).

Does your boat already have the hardware for a sym spi? If not, this would mean adding the guys and blocks, etc. on each bow assuming you have port and stbd blocks well aft for the sheets. You'll need these aft for any of the three sails discussed.

We use our sym spis a lot in light conditions (we liked the first one so much we bought a second one used). On cats, sym spis make a lot of sense in that we don't need poles and they're very easy to rig and run shorthanded. I've set it solo while the Admiral was busy on something else. A big bonus vs an asym spi is gybing. Very simple vs dousing the asym or flying it around the forestay.

I'll add that an asym spi can be rigged as a sym spi, if you have the sym spi hardware. It won't look right and won't be as efficient, but it'll work for those DDW runs.

Another consideration is whether you have the set up for a 2:1 halyard on your mast for the gennaker? Assuming you'd put this sail on a flexible luff and with a removable furler, you really need a 2:1 halyard because these sails want a really tight luff.

2 Hulls Dave

[davecalvert]

We build a lot of after market, off the wind sails,,for Multihulls. I have found over the years that most short handed crews are reluctant to bother with rigging up a spinnaker. If the boat will only have three sails, I believe the best third sail is a Code 0. This should use the spinnaker points of attachment and sheet blocks, trim around the shrouds and be on a furler. If the material is heavy enough, a light weight UV strip can be added. Than, this becomes an easy to use sail left furled on the end of the bow sprit. When the breeze is light or aft, simply furl the Jib or Genoa and un furl the Code 0 and you are all set. It may not be the best down wind sail but can be used as low as 130 apparent, on the same side as the main, and down wind if sheeted on the opposite side as the main.
On a close reach to a bit aft of the beam. It will be hard to beat!

[2Wind]

Like several above I have a gennaker and an ASI. It would be rare for me to hoist the ASI when a) sailing solo, b) sailing with an inexperienced crew or c) when sailing only a short distance, say 10NM or less. In these cases it is either too much bother for the small increment in speed or just too hard on my own. So in these circumstances, the genakker will be used. It's just so easy. On the other hand, if you always have the crew/skill on hand an ASI in a sock is an excellent and cheap option compared to the gennaker. It's wind angle will be 20 degrees aft of the gennaker. I like having both but if I had to choose, it would be the gennaker as I am more often than not short handed.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by django37

It really depends on your sailing ambitions. Tell us more about them! I have a gennaker, a small spinnaker and a large asym. spi. The latter set on a 22' spinnaker pole make my Lagoon faster downwind (in light Wind) than many racing trimarans -

(Thats a nice looking main you have there Django - im looking at getting a new square top one right now myself - care to share some details? maker, material, fat head batten length and construction?) also does your pole make that much difference vs just attaching to the windward bow?

Re the Gennaker/ Spinnaker question. Im with Monte - go the parasailor for a cat - they are expensive but if you include the extra cost of the sprit and furler in your case not such a great difference.

We use a gennaker as well from 50 awa up to 130 awa (but this is more like 70 twa in lighter air to be clear) and the parasailor from 100 to 180. The main on most cats cant be let out far enough to be really useful below about 130 to 140 due to swept back spreaders so the sym or parasailor becomes pretty useful then in filling what was our biggest hole. if I had to chose one only it would be the parasailor and a good genoa.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Barra

Im with Monte - go the parasailor for a cat - they are expensive but if you include the extra cost of the sprit and furler in your case not such a great difference.

OK, help me understand the benefit of a parasailor sym spi over a traditional sym spi on a cat, please? I've asked this basic question on multiple forums and have never received an answer. Who has used both and what's the difference - and is any difference worth the extra cost of a parasailor?

This is a sincere question as I have two traditional sym spis that I use often and will have to replace eventually. I want to consider a parasailor, but I am not convinced they are not just a gimmick. Convince me otherwise.

Basically, I do not understand what it is about a parasailor that makes it more beneficial over a traditional sym spi. What are the advantages that make the extra expense worth it? I see none. If anything, the biggest difference may be in dousing with a sock, in which the parasailor appears to be more of a challenge in that you have to pull the sock over the "wing".

2 Hulls Dave

[Barra]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

OK, help me understand the benefit of a parasailor sym spi over a traditional sym spi on a cat, please? I've asked this basic question on multiple forums and have never received an answer. Who has used both and what's the difference - and is any difference worth the extra cost of a parasailor?

This is a sincere question as I have two traditional sym spis that I use often and will have to replace eventually. I want to consider a parasailor, but I am not convinced they are not just a gimmick. Convince me otherwise.

Basically, I do not understand what it is about a parasailor that makes it more beneficial over a traditional sym spi. What are the advantages that make the extra expense worth it? I see none. If anything, the biggest difference may be in dousing with a sock, in which the parasailor appears to be more of a challenge in that you have to pull the sock over the "wing".

2 Hulls Dave

The biggest advantage in my opinion of the parasailor for a cat over a traditional sym spin is they are more self tending basically ie the wing provides extra lift which lets the parasailor fly in a bigger apparent wind range without adjustment before collapsing.

This has the most benefit offshore since as you know you are going to surf some waves downwind especially on the catana , bringing the apparent wind forward and collapsing the spinny. This happens less with the parasailor and when it does it tends to reset itself quickly without too much fuss with the wing helping to vent the sudden jump in AWS again (probably why Montes kite survived the 38 knots ). Ive blown a spinny in these conditions on a racing mono and I just dont see the same behaviour from the parasailor.

The other advantage is it can theoretically be flown as high as 70 degrees though for us 90 is as useful as it gets so bigger wind angle than traditional sym spin ie assym and sym in one.

re the dousing the sock is easy to use and ive doused the thing in low 20 knots TWS solo. Only a handful of times has the wing caught on the sock mouth which just takes a sec to rehoist a little and go again.

My comparisons are mono sym spins to cat with the parasailor though so would also be interested to hear from cat only comparisons if they exist.

re the cost I do agree with you though - they are stupidly overpriced which is why I bought secondhand (basically for the cost of a new sym spin) That was worth it but not convinced on the new price at all. They come in standard sizes and the carib would be a good place to pick one up from a boat that just did the atlantic.

We bought ours in australia off a mono that flew it straight for 16 days while crossing the pacific.

[2Hulls]

OK Barra, thanks for that.

And I apologize to the original poster for this slight threadjack....

Originally Posted by Barra

The biggest advantage in my opinion of the parasailor for a cat over a traditional sym spin is they are more self tending basically ie the wing provides extra lift which lets the parasailor fly in a bigger apparent wind range without adjustment before collapsing.

This has the most benefit offshore since as you know you are going to surf some waves downwind especially on the catana , bringing the apparent wind forward and collapsing the spinny. This happens less with the parasailor and when it does it tends to reset itself quickly without too much fuss with the wing helping to vent the sudden jump in AWS again (probably why Montes kite survived the 38 knots ). Ive blown a spinny in these conditions on a racing mono and I just dont see the same behaviour from the parasailor.

I follow that logic. We have not had collapsing issues due to surfing. When we do fly it on passage it's when we need to go very deep downwind. So while we might get puffs and lulls in apparent wind speed due to changes in boat speed due to surfing, we don't get much change in apparent wind direction - it's always well aft. This lessens any trimming needs.

The other advantage is it can theoretically be flown as high as 70 degrees though for us 90 is as useful as it gets so bigger wind angle than traditional sym spin ie assym and sym in one.

We can squeeze out about 85* AWA in flat water and low to moderate TWS. But this takes constant helming attention. But this is infrequent as at those angles we'd be better off with the main and code 0.

re the dousing the sock is easy to use and ive doused the thing in low 20 knots TWS solo. Only a handful of times has the wing caught on the sock mouth which just takes a sec to rehoist a little and go again.

Well you've got me there - but I don't understand what the wing has to do with easier dousing. I would expect the opposite - more resistance on the sock collar. I never put up the chute if I know we'll see TWS above 15 kts. Above that I just can't get the beast down easily by myself. I weigh only 145# (66kg). The chute is about 145m2. If I have extra crew we can manage it at higher speeds.

My comparisons are mono sym spins to cat with the parasailor though so would also be interested to hear from cat only comparisons if they exist.

I suspect the parasailor advantages for monos are more real. On their website they claim advantages over a conventional sym spi which include, you don't need a pole and less rolling. Of course, we don't care about those on a cat. I can also see an advantage on a mono for the "relief valve" function for a boat already moving at hull speed. We don't care about that, either. As for the "lift" ability to help keep your bow unloaded - baloney. If that thing had enough lift to even remotely take weight off a bow it would be straining against it's lines wanting to take off. I just don't buy it.

As for ease of use, I don't see how my conventional spi could be any easier - other than the getting it down part for a little guy like me. So I'll patiently await some first hand knowledge from someone who has used both on a large cruising cat.

2 Hulls Dave

[monte]

Im the same as Barra, used traditional spin on racing monos but not on a cat, and no trad spin on the cat. Im pretty sure a traditional spinnaker would collapse in 8K TWS with a lumpy sea, but the PS wing holds its shape well in those conditions, which is handy when its squally and going from 8-25K. The sock is easy enough to pull down in up to 30K TWS and also over that if you get the technique down. I would have thought you would just release the sheet or guy to collapse the traditional spi before pulling the sock down the same as you do with the PS. Also do you think a traditional spi would handle 8k - 38K without breaking something or blowing out?

[2Hulls]

Hi monte -

Originally Posted by monte

Im pretty sure a traditional spinnaker would collapse in 8K TWS with a lumpy sea,

Actually, we don't have a problem with that. If it get below 5kts the thing doesn't want to stay full and starts to just hang. Here I would expect the PS to be even worse because it has to be heavier, huh?

The sock is easy enough to pull down in up to 30K TWS and also over that if you get the technique down.

Here again, like Barra, you've got me on that. But I don't understand how the PS can be easier to sock. We do just dump one sheet and guy and hope it collapses out the front of the boat and we have several tricks we can use to make it easier if we get caught in too much wind, but my main trouble may be that I'm so light and the sail is so big. How big is yours? I have literally been lifted off the tramp by the dousing line. If I have a bigger guy to help me it's way more manageable.

Also do you think a traditional spi would handle 8k - 38K without breaking something or blowing out?

Well, people have been using conventional sym spis for a long time. Yep, they can get blown out. Any sail can. Now I don't recall having mine up in much over 25 and I wouldn't do that intentionally. So I don't think I'll be able to answer your question any time soon.

OK, so thanks for that insight, but I do remain a skeptic. I'll need to use one myself to sort it out....

2 Hulls Dave