Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Who says Cats aren't suited to high latitudes?

People on pgs 11 and 12 were discussing this - hence, 2Hulls' first display of that very cool photo.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

If you are considering the Manta, which was not really intended for circumnavigating,
Brad

Gee, I thought the Manta was one that could take me around the world...........if I got my seamanship up to snuff.

There must be only a few that qualify for around the world cats.

Which ones are they.........in 42ft and under?

Prout.....what makes the Prout better than a Manta? (for example)

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Whimsical

This was a major factor in me choosing a Schionning design over others.

Hi Mike,

I have had a quick look at the Schionning web page and see that the helm is located underneath the harder bimini on the bulkhead wall, in the center of the cockpit. To me it seems like you have very limited visibility forward. How is that solved?
(This might be the solution on just the cat I saw pictures of and in that case I apologize.)

[Troutbridge]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Gee, I thought the Manta was one that could take me around the world...........if I got my seamanship up to snuff.

There must be only a few that qualify for around the world cats.

Which ones are they.........in 42ft and under?

Prout.....what makes the Prout better than a Manta? (for example)

Not necessarily. I've purchased a Broadblue 385 for a proposed circumnavigation (casting off in May this year). A BB385 has just completed an Atlantic crossing (with the ARC), a first for the type. I had several reasons for my choice of boat, one was that it appeared 'tough enough' for a circumnavigation. Given that the majority of people go for a 'Trade Wind' circumnavigation and considering the variety and condition of 'foreign flagged' boats I saw in NZ (Bay of Islands) I would think that most boats built today meeting meeting 'ocean category'(different agencies have different names for it) could undertake a circumnavigation. Given that boats are properly constructed then areas to consider are water capacity, fuel capacity and crew comfort. Some cats are better load carriers than others and that certainly should (in my opinion) be a major consideration if considering venturing off the beaten track.
FWIW, the reasons for my choice were the perceived quality of construction, the interior layout & quality of the woodwork, slightly more emphasis on load carrying rather than out and out speed and I liked the look of her. (Admittedly, most cats under around 45' tend to look a little 'dumpy'). It's generally accepted that in a circumnavigation around 85% of the time is spent either at anchor or alongside (depending on budget, of course) so in my book crew comfort is a major consideration rather than out and out speed or being totally 'bullet proof' (or as near as you can make it). Some will claim that speed is all and can get you out of weather trouble..... well, I'm not an experienced cat sailor but I have my doubts about that one, frankly. If my present boat performs even slightly better than my previous 39' mono then I'll be delighted. I already know that she is vastly more comfortable as I'm presently living on board.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by scotte

My wife was adamant about having galley up for a long time, but made a concession when we got our Privilege with galley down - now having lived aboard for awhile she's totally OK with it and I think even glad we made the decision for galley down. Especially since it meant way more storage area than the other boats we were looking at in our range.

My girlfriend has read some of the posts here and though she's not a galley down convert (yet), she's not as adamant about it. In essence if she sees a galley she likes she'll go for it. I just have to make sure she sees good galley-downs.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Andreas, the Catanas in your price range (as I recall the earlier 385 and 435 are the model names) don't really have forward visibility from the settee, although otherwise meet your criteria and are legitimate circumnavigators.

The only one I'm really looking at is the 431 and in it you have good visibility forward. Not as good as on a Lagoon or Fountaine Pajot, but not bad.

Originally Posted by Southern Star

The earlier Outremers - well lets just say that while they are quite capable of circumnavigating and perform extremely well, have a 'galley up' that is akin to what you would find in a 25 foot monohull. Not likely to impress your girlfriend (or any other sea cook).

I know I like the boat because they are fast, solid and would be safe anywhere ... It does however leave a lot to be desired in creature comforts ... My girlfriend hasn't been onboard one yet, but I suspect I already know what she'll say: "Hell No". Until then it's on my list.

Originally Posted by Southern Star

If you are considering the Manta, which was not really intended for circumnavigating, then why not Fountain Pajots?

I have. I even chartered an Athena 38 for a week in Thailand and sailed in a wide range of conditions. It performed very well. It was however more purpose built for charter than for circumnavigating. the galley, though nice, had no storage and very limited counter space. I know it gets better in the bigger ones, but not a whole lot until you get out of my budget range. I need to take a closer look on the owner versions, which is something I have yet to do (other than look at pictures and lay-outs).

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Gee, I thought the Manta was one that could take me around the world...........if I got my seamanship up to snuff.

It's no problem to do it with a Manta, just check out: New Page 1
A family of 4 (with young kids) sailing with a Manta 42 mkII, having a great time and experiencing no problems.

[smj]

Setting Sail have you considered the Freydis 43 or 46? Really nice boat that just might fit your criteria and budget.

[philip van praag]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

My girlfriend has read some of the posts here and though she's not a galley down convert (yet), she's not as adamant about it. In essence if she sees a galley she likes she'll go for it. I just have to make sure she sees good galley-downs.

i have posted some gally down picks on my gallery
we have plenty of locker space and the cook is still part of any social stuff.
if this forum was hear 10 years ago many people would be thinking about boats up to 40'
boats in europe seem to be smaller on average!

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

Hi Mike,

I have had a quick look at the Schionning web page and see that the helm is located underneath the harder bimini on the bulkhead wall, in the center of the cockpit. To me it seems like you have very limited visibility forward. How is that solved?
(This might be the solution on just the cat I saw pictures of and in that case I apologize.)

Many of the Schionnings are built with the sold roof extension as we have an over abundance of UV down here. Some are built with the solid bimini but raised above the cabin roof. I am using the flat variant with a large sliding hatch over. This and the lack of forward obstructions with the BiRig will be adequate, I hope.

Mike

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Gee, I thought the Manta was one that could take me around the world...........if I got my seamanship up to snuff.

IMHO, most well equipped and maintained modern cats could be circumnavigators, assuming they had a good crew and smart routing. After all, some people even do it monohulls!

A poorly set up or maintained Catana or other "consensus" voyager could be less seaworthy than anything else.

Dave

[Southern Star]

Dave, you are right that a poorly maintained boat will be less seaworthy. But assuming that two boats are in the same state of repair (as we must in order to compare designs, rather than merely individual boats), then there are some attributes that are desireable in a circumnavigator. Here are a few that should not be too controversial:

Bridgedeck clearance (and shape); keeping weight out of the ends; adequate bouyancy in the bows in large seas; a reasonably low center of gravity; a deck that is easy to move around on and a mast (especially if lines are not led aft) that is easy to reach and use; adequate pulpits, pushpits, stanchions and lifelines; adequate tankage; adequate storage; a galley in which the cook can be braced in (or at least, strapped in); an adequate chart table/nav station - preferably in the bridgedeck saloon; solid if not necessarily heavy construction; the ability to reef/change down to storm sails easily; the ability to tack without resorting to one of the iron gennys; the ability to not only accomodate but carry the stores and equipment used by most modern long-distance cruisers; decent visibility from the helm and the ability to provide some protection from the elements for the helmsperson; a good system for multiple pieces of ground tackle; adequate standing rigging for extreme conditions; a main that can be raised and lowered easily, preferably without resort to power winches/windlasses; windows and portlights that are designed for offshore use; adequate cockpit drainage; adequate reserve bouyancy to keep the vessel afloat in the case of a capsize.

Yes, you can circumnavigate in virtually anything (as Patrick Childress proved in a used Catalina 27 monohull); that does not however mean that anyone would/should recommend the boat for that purpose. The original thread was an inquiry about the cats that were most suitable for circumnavigating and it seems that most of the posts have been trying to assist in that regard. Could the Manta be used for a successful circumnavigation? No doubt, and it would also no doubt be better suited than a number of other boats. However, there are some features that are decidedly less than ideal: bridgedeck clearance is below the recommended minimum of 10% of beam overall; the stock anchoring arrangement is for a single anchor deployed from the middle of the forward cross-beam; the camber-spar jib, while ideal for short-handed sailing, does not readily permit reefing in strong winds; until the introduction of the 42, bouyancy at the sterns was also limited.

Having said that, they have the reputation for solid construction, they have the layout that Andreas and his girlfriend seem to prefer and they provide adequate, if not sparkling performance (akin to the Privilege, Leopard and most Lagoons). They also have reasonable side-decks, steps to the top of the bridgedeck house and have kept heavy accomodation out of the ends of the boat.

Brad

[2Hulls]

Hi Brad - I don't disagree with anything you said.

Is it too early in the morning for a beer?

Beyond mere capability, desirability vs adequacy vs best are subjective qualities obviously up to the individual. The are some boats I wouldn't attempt a round trip in while others would. I wouldn't try it in Magellan's whole fleet! (BTW, he personally didn't make it.)

For the record, I have never done it and don't know yet if we will try. (I may be way off base even commenting on it.) If we do, I'm sure I'll see boats that will amaze me that they made it so far and others may think the same of us.

Here's to lead free sailing!

Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Could the Manta be used for a successful circumnavigation? No doubt, and it would also no doubt be better suited than a number of other boats. However, there are some features that are decidedly less than ideal: bridgedeck clearance is below the recommended minimum of 10% of beam overall; the stock anchoring arrangement is for a single anchor deployed from the middle of the forward cross-beam; the camber-spar jib, while ideal for short-handed sailing, does not readily permit reefing in strong winds; until the introduction of the 42, bouyancy at the sterns was also limited.Brad

A couple of comments about the Manta - The bridgedeck clearance is 24" and the beam is 21', which give 9.5%. The bridgedeck starts 15' back from the bows and ends 7-9' before the end of hull in the stern and is a smooth curve with no flat or discontinous surfaces. The stock anchoring arrangement on new boats is two anchors - one on the middle of the forward crossbeam and one back on the center beam (just curious on this criteria - how many catamarans have arrangements for multiple anchors deployed from places other than the center of the bow? I actually consider anchor arrangements in the bridgedeck below the tramps an undesirable feature). The camber spar jib is a hanked on sail which, when lowered, leaves the forestay free for a proper storm jib avoiding the issues with using a partially rolled up furling sail in heavy weather. Also, the smaller sail area of the camber spar jib is about the same (or less) than a partially furled furling sail on other boats. This is a disadvantage in lighter winds, but definitely a better heavy air option that can be carried longer than a furling jib.

Disclaimer: we own a Manta, but I am not trying to defend the boat - just offer some clarifications to consider.

Mark

[Lodesman]

Mantas are definitely up to the task - this one travelled from Cape Horn to high northern latitudes: http://www.torontomultihullclub.com/.../carpediem.jpg